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Which should be the default in Gentoo, ffmpeg or libav?
I prefer ffmpeg, and it should be the default.
61%
 61%  [ 198 ]
I prefer ffmpeg, but I am fine if libav is the default.
4%
 4%  [ 14 ]
I prefer libav, and it should be the default.
5%
 5%  [ 18 ]
I prefer libav, but I am fine if ffmpeg is the default.
2%
 2%  [ 8 ]
I don't care about the default, but users should have a smooth experience with it, even if that means additional hardships for those who choose differently.
7%
 7%  [ 24 ]
I don't care about the default, but it should be easy to use the non-default, even if that causes a less smooth experience for users of the default.
11%
 11%  [ 38 ]
I don't care either way.
4%
 4%  [ 14 ]
None of the above/Other (please comment)
2%
 2%  [ 7 ]
Total Votes : 321

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grot
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit: condensed this post to keep life simple

Last edited by grot on Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:35 pm; edited 3 times in total
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for the topic, I would agree with khayyims or yoshi's solution.

Although as a new user to gentoo, I can say that if libav is the default, it doesn't seem like it - I had emerge issues with ffmpeg early on. I had never heard of libav, didn't know it was an alternative to ffmpeg, and didn't know that installing virtual/ffmpeg would solve the issues.

So if libav remains the default, some comments to it's particular use would be appreciated by other new users, I'm sure. If it makes a difference, I was using the base eselect profile, [1] on amd64 stable.. I'm not sure if the other profiles might handle this issue automatically, so my point my be moot.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm using libav and plan on continuing to use it. But I honestly wouldn't mind if the default changed because it matches user preferences better. (Changing some USE-flags isn't much of a problem, is it?)


On the other hand: Is this topic so personal that a mask on libav for >=mpv-0.6 had to be put into base/package.use.mask over it? There was no real reason otherwise for that to be there... was there? Sure, I can see the comment that belongs to it, but at least to me, it does not seem like a useful way to model a mpv dependency on a newer version of libav. This mask is still active even when you get the supported version of libav, and ebuilds themselves supposedly have a place for such dependency specifications...


Last edited by Rad on Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:10 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:06 am    Post subject: As an enduser .. Reply with quote

I have installed the current developer versions of
  1. media-video/mpv **
  2. media-video/ffmpeg **
  3. media-libs/libass **
  4. media-video/handbrake **
  5. media-video/aegisub **
I can't make this happen with libav.

Also, I update these weekly.

Part of this is because I'm very much an anime freak (read: otaku). As such, I follow and have an interest in all the very latest encode techniques and subtitle rendering. So yes, I build 9999 versions of the above packages direct from their respective git repositories.

I've been very pleased with the results. Kudos and my thanks to all the responsible developers.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:56 am    Post subject: I'm getting really close to the Last Straw here, people Reply with quote

I've been using Gentoo exclusively for all of my computing needs for eleven years now. Just yesterday I discovered that the machine on my desktop had been sitting there for five whole years.... Time passes really quickly when you only have to change a cooling fan once in a blue moon and never ever re-installed the operating system. My video card was in the process of burning out so I tried to install a new AMD card ( an r285) -- It's not going well... Will probably end up going back to Nvidia.

So while my machine is in total upheaval from it's first major hardware change since its install so many years ago, (It turns out that the motherboard isn't giving me all of the PCIe channels I paid for so I might have to switch that out in the next week too...) So in the middle of that, this shitstorm comes down and I'm like SERIOUSLY?!?!?!?!? :evil: I mean, there are two packages that I absolutely require. mplayer, which i use every day, and xine which is the only video player that basically works for everything I need it for. Both of these packages require ffmpeg. If I cannot use either, then I'm going to have to switch to windows 7. That's all there is to it. By dicking around with me like this you are forcing me to abandon a 22 year boycott of all Microsoft products. I hope you are happy with yourselves... (No other linux distribution could have survived on my computer the way I use it like Gentoo has.)

I have read the whole history of this ffmpeg clusterbleep. I don't care. ffmpeg works ### DEAL WITH IT ###

Furthermore, because you have stepped on my toes bigtime here I propose that libav be permanently banned from the distribution forever and irrevocably, regardless of the few packages on the other side of the breakage even, if in 50 years, gentoo becames that backwards distribution that STILL uses ffmpeg, I'm like GOOD, it shows the libav dweebs that we care about the ability to chose stuff... That's the entire point of using linux, right?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:29 am    Post subject: Re: I'm getting really close to the Last Straw here, people Reply with quote

AlonzoTG wrote:
I'm like SERIOUSLY?!?!?!?!? :evil: I mean, there are two packages that I absolutely require. mplayer, which i use every day, and xine which is the only video player that basically works for everything I need it for. Both of these packages require ffmpeg. If I cannot use either, then I'm going to have to switch to windows 7. That's all there is to it. By dicking around with me like this you are forcing me to abandon a 22 year boycott of all Microsoft products.

Please read carefully. Nobody is removing ffmpeg or libav. Users are free to choose whichever they prefer. Both implementations remain supported. The whole discussion is just about whether ffmpeg or libav should be the default if the user hasn't indicated a specific preference.

All we want is to make portage behaviour in this regard more predictable, and also to make it more straightforward to switch.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rad wrote:
On the other hand: Is this topic so personal that a mask on libav for >=mpv-0.6 had to be put into base/package.use.mask over it? There was no real reason otherwise for that to be there... was there? Sure, I can see the comment that belongs to it, but at least to me, it does not seem like a useful way to model a mpv dependency on a newer version of libav. This mask is still active even when you get the supported version of libav, and ebuilds themselves supposedly have a place for such dependency specifications...

You misunderstand. It is about consistency of the portage tree. Nothing personal.

The situation was that >=mpv-0.6 was masked in package.mask, because it has an optional dependency on >=libav-10, which is masked in package.mask because a number of packages fails to build with it. See bug #509294.

(As smplayer maintainer I was hit by this, because there is a new version that can be used as GUI frontend for mpv. But I had to mask it, because one of its dependencies was masked...)

But the other option for mpv is ffmpeg, which has a working version available that is not masked.

The question then arises: should we keep mpv-0.7* masked because one of the options is masked? Or should we unmask it, and increase visibility for newer mpv, and the smplayer version that can function as frontend for mpv? Add to this the mpv upstream recommendation for ffmpeg over libav.

This was my motivation for unmasking mpv-0.7*, so more users can enjoy using it. Since libav-10* isn't ready to be unmasked yet, I had to mask the libav useflag on mpv, to keep the portage tree in a consistent state. (It is not allowed to depend on a masked package.) I discussed this with a few other developers, and they agreed with me.

I am trying to keep the politics out of it, and just look at it from a practical point of view. Should we really keep mpv-0.7* masked because its not-recommended configuration breaks other packages? Why not unmask it at least for those users who would use it with ffmpeg, as upstream recommends?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:27 am    Post subject: Re: I'm getting really close to the Last Straw here, people Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
AlonzoTG wrote:
I'm like SERIOUSLY?!?!?!?!? :evil: I mean, there are two packages that I absolutely require. mplayer, which i use every day, and xine which is the only video player that basically works for everything I need it for. Both of these packages require ffmpeg. If I cannot use either, then I'm going to have to switch to windows 7. That's all there is to it. By dicking around with me like this you are forcing me to abandon a 22 year boycott of all Microsoft products.

Please read carefully. Nobody is removing ffmpeg or libav. Users are free to choose whichever they prefer. Both implementations remain supported. The whole discussion is just about whether ffmpeg or libav should be the default if the user hasn't indicated a specific preference.

All we want is to make portage behaviour in this regard more predictable, and also to make it more straightforward to switch.


And how exactly was this "choice" presented to the user. A couple of days ago there was blockers that turned out to be due to a new USE flag libav even though preciously the choice was managed via virtuals

Sure the choice was there but damn... You didn't half make it non-obvious..
I missed the libav USE flag being added due to the verbose nature portage spams if there is a blockage. Some people might not be aware of the childish behaviour of libav,ffmpeg devs to know that libav exists...
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
EmaRsk wrote:
g99 wrote:
I'd just like to point out that one dev (sorry, I don't remember who) said on the mailing list that ffmpeg's (then) 57% of the votes was not a strong majority.


It was hasufell (http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/94722), and I find it really misguided and dishonest, because anybody who has seen the results can see that there's a overwhelming majority.

hasufell :roll: well that explains the stupidity.

Please refrain from personal attacks. That doesn't help settle the issue in any way.

Reported.

'Personal attack' aside, it was indeed disingenuous of hasufell to suggest otherwise, as the current poll results indicate an overwhelming majority favour ffmpeg over libav:

Quote:
I prefer ffmpeg, and it should be the default. 61% [ 101 ]

I prefer ffmpeg, but I am fine if libav is the default. 4% [ 8 ]

I prefer libav, and it should be the default. 5% [ 9 ]

I prefer libav, but I am fine if ffmpeg is the default. 3% [ 6 ]

I don't care about the default, but users should have a smooth experience with it, even if that means additional hardships for those who choose differently. 6% [ 10 ]

I don't care about the default, but it should be easy to use the non-default, even if that causes a less smooth experience for users of the default. 14% [ 23 ]

I don't care either way. 2% [ 4 ]

None of the above/Other (please comment) 1% [ 3 ]

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always choose ffmpeg.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:19 am    Post subject: Re: I'm getting really close to the Last Straw here, people Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
And how exactly was this "choice" presented to the user.

It was presented with a news item: the most powerful method gentoo has to inform its users; to be used sparingly.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What would be nice would be any dev that works on some project like libav abstain from making decisions as a gentoo dev
of favoring that software over another. They're hardly in a position of being impartial.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:

You misunderstand. It is about consistency of the portage tree. Nothing personal.

Yes, evidently I did. I'm sorry for interpreting it this way. My apologies!

yngwin wrote:

This was my motivation for unmasking mpv-0.7*, so more users can enjoy using it. Since libav-10* isn't ready to be unmasked yet, I had to mask the libav useflag on mpv, to keep the portage tree in a consistent state. (It is not allowed to depend on a masked package.) I discussed this with a few other developers, and they agreed with me.

It seems to me that this policy has led to a more confusing situation for me than depending on the masked libav would have.

yngwin wrote:

[I am trying to keep the politics out of it, and just look at it from a practical point of view. Should we really keep mpv-0.7* masked because its not-recommended configuration breaks other packages? Why not unmask it at least for those users who would use it with ffmpeg, as upstream recommends?

Again, apologies for suspecting you personally!

It just was that anyone who uses libav with mpv now has to half manually figure out why and where the libav USE flag is not being accepted and why they therefore get a (blocking) resolution insisting on ffmpeg, which is the only thing that is really particularly visible. The package managers aren't too forthcoming to where one might have gotten an USE flag mask on libav from. (Of course if you do know that parens mean something like "masked by profile" and you know where the profile files are and such, then you can start to poke around and presumably find why and where this USE flag mask is set.)

After that, this setting needs to be changed in configuration (or hackishly changed in the file it was set, which won't last past the next "emerge sync"), something which most users probably also didn't ever do before.

[s]And then we also have to figure out / guess which of the masked versions of libav might be working and unmask that, because it's not recorded in the mpv ebuild. You get a compile-time failure otherwise, I think.[/s] (<- Edit: I thought wrong)

It just seemed like it was almost deliberately arranged to be obscure and a bit complex to resolve while keeping libav. Wouldn't be surprised if other libav+mpv users couldn't actually figure this out, or took a while to figure it out, like I did.


Now, to answer your question: Certainly, I'd also not keep mpv-0.7 masked because of the less recommended and perhaps less frequently used configuration!

But again, in my opinion, it would have been more meaningful and straightforward to depend on the required version of libav if the libav USE-flag is set. Its simpler. And it records the required dependency.


Last edited by Rad on Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rad wrote:
yngwin wrote:

You misunderstand. It is about consistency of the portage tree. Nothing personal.

Yes, evidently I did. I'm sorry for interpreting it this way. My apologies!

Accepted.

Rad wrote:
And then we also have to figure out / guess *which* of the masked versions of libav might be working, because it's not recorded in the mpv ebuild.


But it is! mpv-0.7.3.ebuild:
Code:
RDEPEND="
    libav? ( >=media-video/libav-10:0=[encode?,threads,vaapi?,vdpau?] )
    !libav? ( >=media-video/ffmpeg-2.1.4:0=[encode?,threads,vaapi?,vdpau?] )

Couldn't be more explicit.

Rad wrote:
It just seemed like it was almost deliberately arranged to be obscure and a bit complex to resolve while keeping libav. Wouldn't be surprised if other libav+mpv users couldn't actually figure this out, or took a while to figure it out, like I did.

I know, it is complex. And portage gives error messages that are not very clear. I hope my attempts here to clarify matters help.

For anyone else here who wants to keep using mpv with libav, here are the necessary changes:
Code:
echo 'media-video/mpv -libav' >> /etc/portage/profile/package.use.mask
echo '>=media-video/libav-10' >> /etc/portage/package.unmask
echo 'USE+=" ffmpeg libav"' >> /etc/portage/make.conf

(adjust as needed if you use a directory setup)
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:

But it is! mpv-0.7.3.ebuild:
Code:
RDEPEND="
    libav? ( >=media-video/libav-10:0=[encode?,threads,vaapi?,vdpau?] )
    !libav? ( >=media-video/ffmpeg-2.1.4:0=[encode?,threads,vaapi?,vdpau?] )

Couldn't be more explicit.

Even more mistakes on my end? *sigh*

I actually already had this unmasked some months ago for mpv (0.4? 0.5?) and later, but it seemed to me that I actually needed to use 11.2. I must have changed or broken something on my end while fumbling around with the ebuilds and all that late at night...

yngwin wrote:

I know, it is complex. And portage gives error messages that are not very clear.

Yes. I found no tool that just pointed me directly to the file with the USE mask, or something like that. Some tools like "equery uses" don't even show the USE-flag when it's masked, and most don't really do much to indicate what the alternative to the (in my case also blocked) ffmpeg would have been. Ultimately, it was grep & vim time.

If someone knows what tool from the array of tools available for use with Portage I might have used, that'd be interesting to know.

yngwin wrote:
I hope my attempts here to clarify matters help.

But yup, you addressed my (mostly wrong) complaints very well, and I think the instructions you gave will help other people. Thanks a lot for your hard work! :)
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RayDude wrote:
force libav to use different library names so they they can be on the system at the same time.

mv wrote:
Whoever is unhappy with the situation: This is the only reasonable solution.
Bug libav upstream to rename their library files, and possibly put their header files in a separate directory (and perhaps provide different .pc file nams if the latter has not already happened - I did not check).
No matter, what they claim, they are the fork, and it is their duty to provide a working solution - which means allowing at least full parallel installation on a source level without patching or chroot trickery.

This cannot be solved on the level of a single distribution by patching, because consumer projects are understandably reluctant to write code which will work only on a single distribution.

So really: Bug upstream until they become sane!

Have to agree with you here. WTF were the libav people thinking, reusing the exact same libnames etc? It's just dumbass.

Even more sad is that our distro isn't steering us a safe path through these waters; rather someone at the helm has decided to run us into the cliffs. Now let's have a poll about it, and make out it's really "difficult" and we're such brave soldiers for putting everyone thru such idiocy.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Have to agree with you here. WTF were the libav people thinking, reusing the exact same libnames etc? It's just dumbass.

May I ask why at all the "libav people" should offer an alternative ffmpeg implementation, when they are supposed to hide their libs from consumer applications?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
steveL wrote:
Have to agree with you here. WTF were the libav people thinking, reusing the exact same libnames etc? It's just dumbass.

May I ask why at all the "libav people" should offer an alternative ffmpeg implementation, when they are supposed to hide their libs from consumer applications?

If the hatred is that intense between ffmpeg and libav that they are blind to the ... complications they are causing userland, the best thing they can do is install in a {libav,ffmpeg} location or both rename their libs. Let distro's symlink the "default"

but not this, this is ridiculous. Even AMD & nvidia don't stomp on each other like this
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

libav should be more nice with its upstream and stop bugging us with incompatible behaviour, if they really wants to be totally different, they should just clean all and drop ffmpeg lib names to use their own and problem solved as we could use both at the same time.
But they won't do that, as been a parasite to upstream could be a way to force anyone choice:
- parasite your upstream
- get some popularity
- now make yourself incompatible with upstream
-> now people have to choose to drop your implementation or the original one. If you get a tiny more popular than upstream, you could force anyone to use your own, and kills upstream.

These are hostile devs using our distro as their general in their own battle against ffmpeg.
Nothing good for user, nothing good for gentoo, and nothing good in free software as this kind of action is Windows's mentality where your implementation should not be better than another one, but the only one in use.
This kind of act is common in commercial product (vhs vs betamax, blueray vs hddvd), and so common in Windows's world, far less common in free software (to not makes ulenrich mad for nothing, i won't cite the one that comes to my mind).
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
May I ask why at all the "libav people" should offer an alternative ffmpeg implementation

Because this is what they were doing in the mooment when they started to fork.
Their only reason not to rename the libraries is to make it hard for the user to have their project installed in parallel with the project they forked. This is a childish behavior which even the systemd developers did not do.
Quote:
when they are supposed to hide their libs from consumer applications?

This phrase makes no sense to me. The purpose of libs is to be used by consumer applications, not to be hidden from them. Of course, some implementation details are hidden, but the way to access the libraries (via .pc and header files) must be visible. And these global names (as well as the so-names) should not collide with other projects, because it is unfortunately necessary under a standard unix installation (without chroot's or local hacks) that all libraries use the same global namespace. Therefore, every sane project tries to avoid such collisions. The libav developers (probably intentionally) did not and thus broke the unwritten contract of liibrary development.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even libreOffice reverted to the original staroffice executable names so it wouldn't cause users issues if they had both installed...
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:04 pm    Post subject: Re: ffmpeg/libav default in Gentoo Reply with quote

I don't understand this thread, can someone please explain to me like to a five year old?

I thought there were basically two main principles that should have helped resolve this without the need to post polls and bicker about it. The first is If it ain't broken, don't fix it. Is ffmpeg broken? Hasn't it been default for years? Is there any significant benefit in libav to break this age old default and switch over to it?

The second is... why is there even a dilemma? Gentoo - the source based Linux distro with a powerful build system like portage and USE flags should know better. How can there be a default for such a library? Is it part of the stage 3 tarball? Or is it something you provide USE flags for, make sure both work with their reverse deps and call it a day.

Oh it's default for a virtual package? How nonsensical it is to have libav first dep of virtual/ffpmeg and then ask which one should be the default for, well, ffmpeg? Doesn't this, like, answer itself? And again, we've bitched about binary distro maintainers forcing defaults to us and praised the USE flags and the ability to set defaults ourselves. So, come again, why is this a dilemma?

And if libav broke ABI and can't be a drop-in replacement for ffpmeg, why is it even an option? How on earth did it become the default for ffpmeg virtual to begin with?! And when, I must've missed something in the past few years...

Or provide it, because that has been the Gentoo way for, like, ever, and hard mask it out until the upstream gets its shit together. If at all.

I just don't get it...
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And all that is valid... until you throw into the mix that one of libav developers is a gentoo developer ...

we have virtual/ffmpeg that served as a means to allow the two supposedly compatible libraries to exist... some developer now decided to set libav as the default
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
we have virtual/ffmpeg that served as a means to allow the two supposedly compatible libraries to exist...


I understand the use of virtual packages. But this particular instance is implemented the wrong way around. Virtual packages are there to satisfy a certain dependency, but virtuals should not be installed directly and should therefore not have a direct default dependency.

That's the whole idea of them being virtual to begin with. They exist so packages can say "I need something providing ffmpeg API" (and let's forget for a moment that libav aparently doesn't provide that API in full which is even more ridiculous to have it as default). Portage looks and decides what to install. It sees there's no ffmpeg nor libav USE flag defined, portage warns the user to define one.

Portage is already complaining a lot about various missing and undefined USE flags, which is okay, it only means it needs something and leaves it to you to explicitly enable that.

That way you completely side step politics and leave it to the user to define what s/he wants. That's why we're all using Gentoo to begin with, right? Because otherwise you force defaults that will be changed on a per-user basis anyway (and given this poll results, in favor of ffmpeg), so the benefit of a default is lost, and it is only introducing politics into the game.

Because one day someone will decide to implement a default virtual/init and whole hell will break loose for absolutely no reason other than to cause chaos. Yes, I couldn't hold my mouth shut. I just hope you guys realize it is all the same kind of crap: useless politicking in a system designed for, and unique because of, the ability to mix'n'match packages as you wish (within the confines of available options, of course).

<sarcasm>
Otherwise why stop there. Let's have a default desktop env too. A default browser. Hey, we can then write a decent installer that will use all those defaults and get rid of the ancient and time consuming stage-3 installation procedure.
</sarcasm>
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Naib
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree and this aspect seems more politically driven then technically. If it was technically, libav would be hard-masked as it isn't form fit and functional as a transparent dropin replacement. Yet someone took the decision to not only mark a version as stable but to set libav as the default video library source on gentoo...

Meanwhile users are being hit with build warnings like this: http://dpaste.com/2Z01BDK as projects relying on ffmpeg are also now having to deal with the fallout of the libav stomping on the library namespace while not being a dropin replacement...
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