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Which should be the default in Gentoo, ffmpeg or libav?
I prefer ffmpeg, and it should be the default.
61%
 61%  [ 198 ]
I prefer ffmpeg, but I am fine if libav is the default.
4%
 4%  [ 14 ]
I prefer libav, and it should be the default.
5%
 5%  [ 18 ]
I prefer libav, but I am fine if ffmpeg is the default.
2%
 2%  [ 8 ]
I don't care about the default, but users should have a smooth experience with it, even if that means additional hardships for those who choose differently.
7%
 7%  [ 24 ]
I don't care about the default, but it should be easy to use the non-default, even if that causes a less smooth experience for users of the default.
11%
 11%  [ 38 ]
I don't care either way.
4%
 4%  [ 14 ]
None of the above/Other (please comment)
2%
 2%  [ 7 ]
Total Votes : 321

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Naib
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kobboi wrote:
Oh, so *that*'s why my system is now bitching about blockers since yesterday. Thanks guys!
yer... Now I know ...
Its quite bad that political fallout is hitting the users like this...
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rich0 wrote:
It is code, not magic. Nothing is impossible. Granted, some things might involve a lot of work. In this case the work falls mostly on all the packages consuming the libraries to account for the non-standard behavior. That is, unless most other distros do the same thing and upstream (for the reverse dependencies) starts expecting it.

I thought that's what a distro was for; to do the work and provide a stable basis.

Seems fashion is more important.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Its quite bad that political fallout is hitting the users like this...


Yep.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RayDude wrote:
force libav to use different library names so they they can be on the system at the same time.

Whoever is unhappy with the situation: This is the only reasonable solution.
Bug libav upstream to rename their library files, and possibly put their header files in a separate directory (and perhaps provide different .pc file nams if the latter has not already happened - I did not check).
No matter, what they claim, they are the fork, and it is their duty to provide a working solution - which means allowing at least full parallel installation on a source level without patching or chroot trickery.

This cannot be solved on the level of a single distribution by patching, because consumer projects are understandably reluctant to write code which will work only on a single distribution.

So really: Bug upstream until they become sane!
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petteyg359
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

None of the above / other. I realize it may be totally infeasible, but my preference would be to have both installed at the same time and applications linking to whichever (or neither) I choose at build time.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zx2c4 wrote:
For more information:
https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/wiki/FFmpeg-versus-Libav


the article wrote:
The reason for the fork is most likely that the developers hate each other.


What an honest appraisal of the situation, a number of forks, really. And for a moment, I thought I was reading about academia.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I voted "I prefer ffmpeg, and it should be the default".

I've had libav hard masked since the fork, but now had to disable the new libav use flag and enable the ffmpeg one, so thanks for that...
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd just like to point out that one dev (sorry, I don't remember who) said on the mailing list that ffmpeg's (then) 57% of the votes was not a strong majority.

First of all, for this comparison you should only take the first 4 options as the remainder don't express an articulate opinion on the topic. From the four, there are 2 options for ffmpeg and libav both. At the moment ffmpeg has got 86 + 6 = 92 while libav has 8 + 4 = 12, which translates into 88% of the votes for ffmpeg.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was using libav before, but I now use ffmpeg because I moved from mplayer2 to mpv. mpv recommends ffmpeg (lacking some features with libav). More importantly, mpv cannot be emerged in gentoo when using libav, since it needs a very recent libav version, which is masked. But unmasking it seems to break other packages (I assume that's why it was masked to begin with.)

So ffmpeg is the only viable choice. I cannot give up on mpv+smplayer, since that's the best video player I ever used (and not only on Linux, even.) Being able to use mpv is more important to me than the libav vs ffmpeg issue. Actually, being able to use mpv+smplayer is even more important than being able to use gentoo :P
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

g99 wrote:
I'd just like to point out that one dev (sorry, I don't remember who) said on the mailing list that ffmpeg's (then) 57% of the votes was not a strong majority.


It was hasufell (http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/94722), and I find it really misguided and dishonest, because anybody who has seen the results can see that there's a overwhelming majority.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EmaRsk wrote:
g99 wrote:
I'd just like to point out that one dev (sorry, I don't remember who) said on the mailing list that ffmpeg's (then) 57% of the votes was not a strong majority.


It was hasufell (http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/94722), and I find it really misguided and dishonest, because anybody who has seen the results can see that there's a overwhelming majority.
57%, 61% ... thats the difference of 6votes as there is really only 143 votes.
This really is a no-brainer... LibAV is broken, the reason for the split is broken. Dev's in Gentoo should not be setting the default on their prefered political stance (like say pushing systemd...) BUT pushing what works

This is poor by gentoo dev's really really poor!
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There shold be a way to keep both, and in the package define which implementation it builds against.

There are/were quite a few differences in header structure in libav vs ffmpeg i noticed (or just the package had some weird fork of either) and some apps just won't even get past the configure stage, or they will not build.

Especially if you build out of tree, local apps somebody might run. Similarily, some apps designed for libav won't perform optimally built against ffmpeg (like gst-plugins-libav does sometimes which probably everyone needs for html5 video in firefox). I mostly had this problem with showtime media player, which references headers ffmpeg does not have, but they are in bundled copy of libav it has.


At this point, the "one or the other" situation can drive one nuts.


There should be ability to install both, and maybe do something like WANTS_FFMPEG=libav|ffmpeg in ebuilds + eclass to handle it to provide specific pkgconfig/include/lib paths for package's build system so that it finds and picks up the implementation it needs.

I'd say this limitation is artificial, and until this ffmpeg/libav mess is sorted out in various upstream projects it would be better to support both by having separate include dirs and library names, with possibly ability to choose default implementation for packages that e.g. are built by hand or have hardcoded location of ffmpeg/libav headers
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yoshi314 wrote:
There shold be a way to keep both, and in the package define which implementation it builds against.
[…]

+1

This would be the best solution indeed. But the hardest to achieve, I believe.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EmaRsk wrote:
g99 wrote:
I'd just like to point out that one dev (sorry, I don't remember who) said on the mailing list that ffmpeg's (then) 57% of the votes was not a strong majority.

It was hasufell (http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/94722), and I find it really misguided and dishonest, because anybody who has seen the results can see that there's a overwhelming majority.

EmaRsk ... I think the poll is more a question of getting a sense of what the general view on the matter is, rather than a vote on how we should proceed. I get the impression from the options that the poller is looking for more than implied by "which should be the default A or B". So, while the data does point in favour of ffmpeg, its not the only data point that can be extrapolated ... some people don't care, or have other concerns (such as things "working").

With such a number of options to an essencially binary question there are a number of ways we can tally up the data, one of which is of course a strong support for ffmpeg in preference to libav, ie (using the figures as they stand currently):

total votes = 151
prefer ffmpeg: 92 + 7 = 99
prefer libav: 8 + 4 = 12

This leaves 40 votes with no strong preference either way, or having other concerns. That's less than half the votes that 'prefer ffmpeg' garnered but its not insignificant.

There are probably other ways to slice and dice the data ... certainly ffmpeg has the strong lead, but it doesn't seem to me that this is what the poll is really all about.

best ... khay
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EmaRsk
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
EmaRsk ... I think the poll is more a question of getting a sense of what the general view on the matter is, rather than a vote on how we should proceed.

I never stated nor implied otherwise. I'll add that the number of voters is quite low, which means that probably the majority of users just don't care or don't know. (OT: is there a way to get an idea of how many active users there are on the forum?).
But still, this poll is the data we have at hand, and look at the results the way you want and extrapolate whatever you want, there's no questioning that ffmpeg is the clear winner.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EmaRsk wrote:
khayyam wrote:
EmaRsk ... I think the poll is more a question of getting a sense of what the general view on the matter is, rather than a vote on how we should proceed.

I never stated nor implied otherwise. I'll add that the number of voters is quite low, which means that probably the majority of users just don't care or don't know. (OT: is there a way to get an idea of how many active users there are on the forum?). But still, this poll is the data we have at hand, and look at the results the way you want and extrapolate whatever you want, there's no questioning that ffmpeg is the clear winner.

EmaRsk ... well, that was a statement on the poll in general, rather than a comment on what you stated or implied. None the less, if you state "ffmpeg is the clear winner" then you are focusing on this fact and excluding others ... namely that 40 of the 151 votes don't care who the "winner" is ... that fact is also data that can be extrapolated from the poll.

I'm pleased that ffmpeg had such a strong preference, but that's besides the point, as that's my preference and bias. Had the poll been A). ffmpeg B). libav C). none of the above, then I'd probably see it more in terms of winners and losers ... but, given the number of options I'm more inclined to see it as less about the tally but what peoples priorities are.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
There are probably other ways to slice and dice the data ... certainly ffmpeg has the strong lead, but it doesn't seem to me that this is what the poll is really all about.

best ... khay


my personal interpretation is that there are more packages that work with ffmpeg (and break with libav) than the other way around. it would be a reasonable thing to do to prefer ffmpeg, because of that. although i'd like to be able to have them side by side for various 3rd party projects i build locally.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think we should choose parasite libraries as default. So, I voted for libav. According to mpv authors comparison there isn't many useful features or advantages in ffmpeg over libav. I see that in a long term FFmpeg has more disadvantages.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meet Joe Black wrote:
I don't think we should choose parasite libraries as default. So, I voted for libav. According to mpv authors comparison there isn't many useful features or advantages in ffmpeg over libav. I see that in a long term FFmpeg has more disadvantages.
and that is a political statement. Right now libav is breaking things that ffmpeg isn't so the logical option is ffmpeg by default
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As someone that generally doesn't care about multimedia, and thus, doesn't have a preference...

Over on the mailing list, the argument is that, Gentoo has developers in the libav project, so it should be the default...

The entire problem with the situation is one of namespace collision... that is, libav forked and is using the same library names and whatnot as ffmpeg. So, why not have the "Gentoo developers on libav" use their clout to rename the collisions upstream, allowing both to be installed side by side, pretty much ending the debate for the need of the one true multimedia library?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meet Joe Black wrote:
I don't think we should choose parasite libraries


Yeah, let's base decisions on B.S. strawman FUD!
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
Over on the mailing list, the argument is that, Gentoo has developers in the libav project, so it should be the default...


And thus the political decision making process. :roll:

We've had the same problem with other pieces of software in recent memory.
Devs like something or work on some project then they decide that it should be the default for everyone else, to hell with what the users want or need or even choice.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ffmpeg as default

Reasoning: it's the "original", it works, there seems to be fewer software which is libav-only, the virtual is called ffmpeg, unless symlinks are created automatically many scripts will break/software must be reconfigured.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I wrote in the OP, this poll is intended to give Gentoo developers a data point in the discussion. It will not alone determine any outcome, but won't be completely ignored either.

It should also be mentioned that the developer perspective on this is not necessarily the same as the user perspective. As the mpv article pointed out, a user may perceive ffmpeg to be less broken than libav for the same reason that a developer may perceive it as more broken. Suffice to say that the preference among developers is less clear-cut than what users have voiced in the poll.

That being said: After two thirds of participating users told us that they would switch to ffmpeg anyway, it is hard to imagine that Gentoo would make switching more difficult than absolutely necessary in case libav remains the default.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yoshi314 wrote:
khayyam wrote:
There are probably other ways to slice and dice the data ... certainly ffmpeg has the strong lead, but it doesn't seem to me that this is what the poll is really all about.

my personal interpretation is that there are more packages that work with ffmpeg (and break with libav) than the other way around. it would be a reasonable thing to do to prefer ffmpeg, because of that. although i'd like to be able to have them side by side for various 3rd party projects i build locally.

yoshi314 ... your personal interpretation of the data from the poll? Well, no, I don't really see it suggesting that. I'd agree otherwise, many of the comments point to the fact that the end result of the fork is not beneficial for end users, and that most of this is due to the fact that the 'ffmpeg' namespace is contested. This results in no other option than to have one or other dependent on what library is needed ... so, a shared namespace for two somewhat incompatible implimentations. I'd agree also that ffmpeg would be a better default, though not only due to it having a greater number of working packages, I think our adoption of libav has led to the issues we're seeing now, and if its the users who suffer then I don't see a particularly good reason to validate that adoption.

best ... khay
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