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Which should be the default in Gentoo, ffmpeg or libav?
I prefer ffmpeg, and it should be the default.
61%
 61%  [ 198 ]
I prefer ffmpeg, but I am fine if libav is the default.
4%
 4%  [ 14 ]
I prefer libav, and it should be the default.
5%
 5%  [ 18 ]
I prefer libav, but I am fine if ffmpeg is the default.
2%
 2%  [ 8 ]
I don't care about the default, but users should have a smooth experience with it, even if that means additional hardships for those who choose differently.
7%
 7%  [ 24 ]
I don't care about the default, but it should be easy to use the non-default, even if that causes a less smooth experience for users of the default.
11%
 11%  [ 38 ]
I don't care either way.
4%
 4%  [ 14 ]
None of the above/Other (please comment)
2%
 2%  [ 7 ]
Total Votes : 321

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augustin
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:

No-one who's been around Gentoo for more than 2 or 3 years is going to believe a word of it.


Steve, I appreciate the welcome and help you gave me in another thread.
I have certainly not been around for 2 or 3 years. I am very new here, and I am yet to figure out who is who.
However, yours is one of the few names I remember because of the numerous inflammatory posts I noticed from you.
I am not saying that you are wrong and that the people you are addressing are right. But certainly there exist a nicer way to share opinions and provide information.

I try to welcome all opinion contrary to mine. Let's try to foster a nice environment for peaceful dialogue and for information and opinion exchange.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
leifbk wrote:
augustin wrote:
juantxorena wrote:
It seems that the common sense finally came to the people in charge: https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/50c181372e098719b2573e7b16c74482.
I guess we will see ffmpeg as default in the following days.


Hmmm....
https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/e6c4a34c8bf56326b8ace226453a35e7

I agree that it's a bad day for such news, but this one has a ring of truth about it - contrary to the alleged remake of the Gentoo Website :P

I thought it was the perfect date for this, because of all the hoo-hah about this issue especially here on these forums.

Unfortunately something came up IRL, and I didn't have the time this week to refine the news item, but I plan on doing so this weekend. So the switch will happen soon.


All the hoo-hah? Are you really saying that Gentoo dev implemented something purely on lobbying (or pressure or noise... Depending on how you dress it) just like they implemented something purely on lobbying...

The dev's have learnt NOTHING from this, which means it can happen again.
Libav is broken simple as that, it should not have been enabled as the forced default, it should not have been unmasked, simple as that. No amount of lobbying or noise should trump a simple concept like that.

To reduce this to hoo-hah is a dissapointement from a Gentoo developer and the Gentoo developer who facilitated in this mess from within both camps.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
The dev's have learnt NOTHING from this, which means it can happen again.
Libav is broken simple as that, it should not have been enabled as the forced default, it should not have been unmasked, simple as that. No amount of lobbying or noise should trump a simple concept like that.

What should a minor Gentoo maintainer learn from this in general?

At the time the libav fork started ffmpeg seemed to be broken. If you not had been an insider of the upstream ffmpeg developers comunity, a very in-insider, you could not have guessed this brokeness was due to personal havoc in that special comunity. And you could not have guessed the long time captain of that comunity would change that dramatically and could then concentrate on his absolute strength in the follow up of upstream ffmpeg. Such as now upstream ffmpeg must be seen superior of libav.

Gentoo as a toolset potentially is a meta distriution. But unfortunately every minor Gentoo maintainer has to deliver his contribution to these official Gentoo releases: stable - unstable - experimental/masked

These Gentoo releases are in large parts obsolete and outdated and this lets any normal Gentoo user think he was betrayed if his outcome of the various keyworded and masked ebuilds is not an optimal solution.

If Gentoo wants to become a real meta distribution
Gentoo should stick to the toolchain when making any suggestions!

Just like Funtoo suggests a stable toolchain and the rest of it is unstable~testing. (This was the case years ago. I don't know the policy nowadays over there).
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Are you really saying that Gentoo dev implemented something purely on lobbying (or pressure or noise... Depending on how you dress it)

No, of course I'm not saying that. We look first and foremost at the technical side of things.

Naib wrote:
Libav is broken simple as that, it should not have been enabled as the forced default, it should not have been unmasked, simple as that. No amount of lobbying or noise should trump a simple concept like that.

It really isn't that simple. While I wasn't actively involved at the time with making libav the default, there were good reasons for doing so. Some say those reasons weren't good enough, which I can understand.

But there was no good reason whatsoever for all the vitriol and conspiracy theorizing as seen in multiple threads on these forums. Even more disappointing was the lack of any mods or other users intervening. Since then, no Gentoo developer has been willing to touch the issue again.

But I believe many users want no part in the politics, and they would be better served with an ffmpeg default (because of practical reasons, not political). This is why I am now going forward with doing so.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
Naib wrote:
Are you really saying that Gentoo dev implemented something purely on lobbying (or pressure or noise... Depending on how you dress it)

No, of course I'm not saying that. We look first and foremost at the technical side of things.

Naib wrote:
Libav is broken simple as that, it should not have been enabled as the forced default, it should not have been unmasked, simple as that. No amount of lobbying or noise should trump a simple concept like that.

It really isn't that simple. While I wasn't actively involved at the time with making libav the default, there were good reasons for doing so. Some say those reasons weren't good enough, which I can understand.

But there was no good reason whatsoever for all the vitriol and conspiracy theorizing as seen in multiple threads on these forums. Even more disappointing was the lack of any mods or other users intervening. Since then, no Gentoo developer has been willing to touch the issue again.

But I believe many users want no part in the politics, and they would be better served with an ffmpeg default (because of practical reasons, not political). This is why I am now going forward with doing so.


I don't disagree that there were good reasons todo it (that is put it in the tree), but that then changed when ffmpeg upped their game and libav kept dropping the ball on security & abi breakage.
This had occurred over the last year YET it was just over a month ago that Gentoo hard set libav as the default when these issues were known (I say hard has before it was a 'preference' simply because libav was 1st in a list and hard bow as an explicit new USE flag was created &set as default).

There is no excuse for that nor is there for the ensuing confusion that an ffmpeg USE flag did not mean USE ffmpeg *facepalm*

Everyone has a right to change their mind and direct based upon new information, to steer into the iceburg begs the question... Who is at the helm
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
If Gentoo wants to become a real meta distribution
Gentoo should stick to the toolchain when making any suggestions!

I mean:
It should be much harder for any normal user to follow Gentoo directly and to create his own personal installation. Any user in need of defaults should be guided to use a derivative Gentoo release, which fits his needs.

At the same time Gentoo developers should change the official portage tree in a way it is more easy to create a long standing derivative of Gentoo. As of now all of that official portage tree with the profiles and masks and keywords is hard to follow when you try to change your personal distribution. Mainly because profiles are recursively constructed and any negative logic (masks) is harder to think about than just positive lists (positive lists of ebuilds to be included in special releases - I would suggest as only used tool in the portage tree).

This recursive style of the portage tree makes an easy living for Gentoo developers to maintain it. But the focus should instead be:
Easy to follow for derivative distributions of Gentoo. Every user not following the Gentoo-stable release feels the difficulties now and then. Also the ffmpeg/libav mess is just an example to even get in trouble when even following Gentoo-stable release.

Why is it Debian has more derivative distributions than Gentoo? While Gentoo claims to be a meta distribution that is ridiculous as an outcome.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
There is no excuse for that nor is there for the ensuing confusion that an ffmpeg USE flag did not mean USE ffmpeg *facepalm*

There was a news item perfectly explaining it, and the libav default ensured that those who had it installed as the 'silent' default - that it was before - didn't have to make a change.

You can't please everyone, I guess.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
Naib wrote:
There is no excuse for that nor is there for the ensuing confusion that an ffmpeg USE flag did not mean USE ffmpeg *facepalm*

There was a news item perfectly explaining it, and the libav default ensured that those who had it installed as the 'silent' default - that it was before - didn't have to make a change.

You can't please everyone, I guess.


KISS and anyway that doesn't justify setting the broken toolsuite (from a security, abi, namespace stomping) as the default... Political should not trump technical
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
KISS and anyway that doesn't justify setting the broken toolsuite (from a security, abi, namespace stomping) as the default... Political should not trump technical

You want to draw it as if the recent decision was a deliberate switch of the default - when it was really a non-decision and just following the way virtual/ffmpeg had worked before. There was a need to address how the ffmpeg/libav choice was handled, it was done. Simple as that.

But again, the forums making mountains out of molehills...
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
Naib wrote:
KISS and anyway that doesn't justify setting the broken toolsuite (from a security, abi, namespace stomping) as the default... Political should not trump technical

You want to draw it as if the recent decision was a deliberate switch of the default - when it was really a non-decision and just following the way virtual/ffmpeg had worked before. There was a need to address how the ffmpeg/libav choice was handled, it was done. Simple as that.

But again, the forums making mountains out of molehills...
actually it wasnt
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
No-one who's been around Gentoo for more than 2 or 3 years is going to believe a word of it.

augustin wrote:
Steve, I appreciate the welcome and help you gave me in another thread.
I have certainly not been around for 2 or 3 years. I am very new here, and I am yet to figure out who is who.
However, yours is one of the few names I remember because of the numerous inflammatory posts I noticed from you.
I am not saying that you are wrong and that the people you are addressing are right. But certainly there exist a nicer way to share opinions and provide information.

Hmm. The issue is that there is no way to dress up crap as shinola.

As such, you will read "negative" descriptions of bad behaviour, as well as bad design or plain dumbassery, from me, since there isn't any way to write a positive description of something bad, and I'm not about to obfuscate the point just to suck up to a "developer" who subscribes to the damaging meme that they "deserve special treatment" only to behave as well as any user is expected to.

If anything I expect them to behave to a higher standard, in line with the distribution's mission statements over time, as well as my own professional experience. The latter makes me think they need seasoning, which you don't get by being mollycoddled and spoon-fed, but by being challenged, both in your work, and your personal development; the latter is going to happen anyway, life being what it is. The former requires initiative (do the research, before you jump in), or consideration of another career.

That said, if you find anything I say to be particularly "vitriolic" or "inflammatory" by all means, feel free to pick me up on it where and when it happens. I won't mind; I'll simply explain the background as to why I'm dismissing some argument or another, and if I've been out of line, I'll usually apologise within a day or two of someone pointing it out to me (or if I notice it myself, I'll try apologise to the person directly.) It sometimes takes a day or two because I'm only human.

So if you have a specific point I've made in mind, feel free to call me on it here and now. It's better to have that discussion in the thread or on the medium, where it happened, same as we do on IRC.
Quote:
I try to welcome all opinion contrary to mine. Let's try to foster a nice environment for peaceful dialogue and for information and opinion exchange.

I welcome all discussion that is on point, and isn't plain nasty to a fellow human-being.

The former is relaxed somewhat given that this is a chat forum; the latter never is.

On the historical side, I'll simply state that when I joined the forums, it took me nearly a year to post to the developer mailing-list, because without fail, every user I discussed it with told me to "stay away from the developer list, it's a den of vipers" (or words to that effect.) They were 100% right.

Yes, it's better now than it was, but not because the culture has truly changed, as yet. To an extent it never will, because Gentoo has always drawn its developers mostly from Universities (or around that age, eg when they've just left) and every single one of the male exemplars of that type is looking to make a reputation. As such, there's an awful lot of jockeying for position that simply wearies the mind of someone over 40 (or most females of about 14).

Users on the whole are a lot older, as was shown in a poll on these forums over a year ago, already working in IT, and usually raising a family (or around the age when they're thinking on those lines.) They "just want it to work" but equally are more than willing to roll up their sleeves and pitch in.

The culture has changed to an extent, in that there was such a "houha" a few years ago around Proctors and the actual Code of Conduct, we weren't subject to a massive outflow of debian developers (with all their history of vitriol on mailing-lists) any more, and newer developers have typically come up through the forums, helped at every stage by fellow users (so they tend not to be so belittling of their community.)

So I'm hopeful, but not as hopeful as I was in 2008, principally because no-one has done anything about the "social side (which is under [the Trustee's] remit and always has been)"; really all they've done is note that the users have made a difference to the culture, and said "that's ok then, we don't need to do anything ourselves."

If you think that's an "inflammatory" statement rather than an opinion on the state of affairs, then we don't really have anything to discuss.

I wish you well with your Gentoo.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
To reduce this to hoo-hah is a disappointment from a Gentoo developer.

Precisely. It's trivialising the problem, by belittling the users (normally done with some crap about signal to noise); or pretending a mountain is a molehill, and wondering why people balk at climbing it for you.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks steveL for your feedback. I appreciate your post.
I'll give Time some time for all this to sink in.

Generally speaking, not pointing at anyone specifically, I do wish that internet fora (forums, mailing lists, blogs, etc.), especially political and technical ones, were more peaceful, with people trying a bit harder to stand in each other's shoes, show mutual respect, adopt a 'softer', less accusatory debating style conducive to more peaceful opinion and idea exchanges. And by all means, I am not perfect either!
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, augustin.

I feel I should add something wrt: 'no-one has done anything about the "social side (which is under [the Trustee's] remit and always has been)"; really all they've done is note that the users have made a difference to the culture, and said "that's ok then, we don't need to do anything ourselves."'

The reason it matters is because while the discussion (about Proctors) may have appeared to make a difference, and to an extent did in cultural terms (it became a lot harder to argue that it was ok simply to be bitchy to users, as "this is our list"), the reason you still hear me go on about it, is because in the background the developers had changed the rules, so that the Code of Conduct (which specified Proctors as a central plank) was not followed, and instead became twisted to put even more power than before in the developers' hands.

To an extent this is not surprising; people who work with a set of rules day-to-day tend to know them better, and how to game the system. That's exactly what they did, and that has made things worse, since you now have a bunch of dweebs more interested in posturing than conflict resolution, in charge of "moderation" because they've self-appointed themselves to the posts, even though they claim to be strictly interested in technical matters; so by definition have not been selected for any sort of emotional intelligence or societal awareness.

That's why I don't interact with bugzilla nor the developer list any more, haven't for over a year, and will not for the foreseeable future.
Simply no point when the game is so stacked against users, and I'm not one for playing it, so I leave them to it. After all that's what so many of them have told me to do for years; "get out of Gentoo". I won't ofc, as I love the userbase and the distro; I'll just ignore the neo-fascist (an entirely accurate description imo) asshats instead.

But I don't for one second think that Gentoo is healthier for this state of affairs; if anything it hobbles what we could do, which I think is the point of the exercise.
Everyone's fine with Gentoo as a "niche" distro that they use to shake-test their software on lots of configurations; no corporate bindist really wants it as true competition, though.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good:

  • discussion
  • criticism
  • constructive criticism
  • expressing one's opinions


Bad:

  • name-calling
  • using other people's shortcomings to justify one's own.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To which I'd add:
Good:
Dealing with the substantive.
Acknowledging points the other party has put.
Explanation.
Empathy.
Reasoned thinking.
Knowing your limitations.
Backing off for a while (don't respond in anger; cool off for a day or two first.)

Bad:
Dissing an individual as a person, rather than critiquing code or behaviour.
Pretending everything is okay when it is not.
Clubbing together with your mates to gang up on outsiders.
Getting hung up on formality, rather than results.
Lazy thinking.
Pretending that because we only like technical matters, we are somehow cut out for social ones.
Trolling at an increased rate, the more flames are flying. (Some people just like drama.)
Refusal to acknowledge that the user-base is critical to success.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Naib wrote:
To reduce this to hoo-hah is a disappointment from a Gentoo developer.

Precisely. It's trivialising the problem, by belittling the users (normally done with some crap about signal to noise); or pretending a mountain is a molehill, and wondering why people balk at climbing it for you.

I didn't mean to belittle the users. I do think the problem has been blown out of proportion by some people taking part in the discussions. I have seen quite some misinformation, vitriolic language, and conspiracy theorizing, in this thread and others about the ffmpeg/libav issue. This has been quite off-putting, and I was simply trying to refer to it in a light-hearted manner. Maybe this was misplaced. If so, I apologize.

But I am seriously trying to seek a solution that is in the best interest of the wider user community. Currently, this switch from libav to ffmpeg as default is on the Council agenda: https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/cea3908b1522a4783103d1a4ba7ab234
The Council meeting is to be on April 14th, so we should have a decision one way or the other soon.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Split off some posts regarding an ongoing discussion related to forum rules considerations.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
I didn't mean to belittle the users. I do think the problem has been blown out of proportion by some people taking part in the discussions. I have seen quite some misinformation, vitriolic language, and conspiracy theorizing, in this thread and others about the ffmpeg/libav issue. This has been quite off-putting, and I was simply trying to refer to it in a light-hearted manner.

Oh I see; so you can refer to "some users" without being specific, and accuse them of all sorts of things, but a user cannot refer to "some developers" without being subject to harrassment.
Quote:
Maybe this was misplaced. If so, I apologize.

Charmed, I'm sure.
Quote:
But I am seriously trying to seek a solution that is in the best interest of the wider user community.

Oh fgs, we've already got there. Practically every developer who said anything on the list, agreed that ffmpeg should be the default, in line with all the users and their "conspiracy of misinformation", and the default has already been switched.

But yeah "Council" what a great idea. Let's get a rubber-stamp two months later from unelected people, since as you stated "Gentoo is not a democracy."
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just wanted to say I am happy to see the switch of the default to ffmpeg. It really doesn't affect current knowledgeable users who have probably already explicitly set a preference either way in their use flags but this change is good for new users I feel as ffmpeg not defaulting to 'ffmpeg' sort of feels "rude". It did to me when I reinstalled Gentoo in December.

In the future may the best implementation win though. It is good I guess to have the choice.

Thank you to the Gentoo Council for being responsive to user input and needs. :)
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

davidm wrote:


Thank you to the Gentoo Council for being responsive to user input and needs. :)

+1

I am really fed up of libav .
As recommended my USE is " -libav"
But there are stil conflict with ffmpeg .
Still nearly 2 weeks I can not go further with my cinelerra/openshot installation !!!
I am a gentoo enthousiast since 2005, but I a downloading right now ubuntu studio because of that
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have openshot installed. I also have handbrake, the latter forced me to install development version of ffmpeg, but openshot works with that as well.

If there are some blockers during world update, then most likely they are caused by some virtual packet still demanding libav even though USE="ffmpeg -libav".

You can put output of emerge here, maybe we'll figure out what is missing/wrong. Of course you can try Ubuntu, but somehow my last 2 attempts to switch to Ubuntu were catastrophic. I couldn't get it to work properly on my machine :)
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Debian is returning to FFMPEG as well https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2015/07/msg00001.html
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I see this news too.
Thanks Gentoo for giving me the choice to use ffmpeg in these years.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting reading, the reasons for Debian to switch back to FFMPEG again:
https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/libav-provider/ffmpeg
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