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Which should be the default in Gentoo, ffmpeg or libav?
I prefer ffmpeg, and it should be the default.
61%
 61%  [ 198 ]
I prefer ffmpeg, but I am fine if libav is the default.
4%
 4%  [ 14 ]
I prefer libav, and it should be the default.
5%
 5%  [ 18 ]
I prefer libav, but I am fine if ffmpeg is the default.
2%
 2%  [ 8 ]
I don't care about the default, but users should have a smooth experience with it, even if that means additional hardships for those who choose differently.
7%
 7%  [ 24 ]
I don't care about the default, but it should be easy to use the non-default, even if that causes a less smooth experience for users of the default.
11%
 11%  [ 38 ]
I don't care either way.
4%
 4%  [ 14 ]
None of the above/Other (please comment)
2%
 2%  [ 7 ]
Total Votes : 321

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steveL
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:44 pm    Post subject: Re: My 2 cents Reply with quote

Navar wrote:
Life is short. Harmony towards a shared goal. You should continue with that focus rather than revert if you wish to avoid seeing possibly more seemingly vitriolic responses from others who haven't appreciated the outcomes. At the very least you should question continued modus operandi and motive.

Whatever happens, you should never get uppity about someone questioning your work. If you're any good, you question it every time you scan it.

Great post.

The method of "slipping in" changes via package manager dependencies, is a lot like the udev/systemdbug approach, too.

Funny how all the political maneuvering ends up looking the same; hal/udev/dbug, paludis, systemdbug/nubkit/loginfail, now "libav: it's souped up, it's agile, it's elegant," it's tromping all over the namespace, and doesn't do what you said it would (so no, we don't care about some other completely different argument for why it's a smoking biscuit.)
Different day, same sh1t.
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RayDude
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:24 pm    Post subject: Re: My 2 cents Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Navar wrote:
Life is short. Harmony towards a shared goal. You should continue with that focus rather than revert if you wish to avoid seeing possibly more seemingly vitriolic responses from others who haven't appreciated the outcomes. At the very least you should question continued modus operandi and motive.

Whatever happens, you should never get uppity about someone questioning your work. If you're any good, you question it every time you scan it.

Great post.

The method of "slipping in" changes via package manager dependencies, is a lot like the udev/systemdbug approach, too.

Funny how all the political maneuvering ends up looking the same; hal/udev/dbug, paludis, systemdbug/nubkit/loginfail, now "libav: it's souped up, it's agile, it's elegant," it's tromping all over the namespace, and doesn't do what you said it would (so no, we don't care about some other completely different argument for why it's a smoking biscuit.)
Different day, same sh1t.


I agree. Great post.

There is consensus here. We don't want libav. We want FFMPEG. How do we make it happen?
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Naib
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Besides locally the default?
Lobbying like minded developers, something that shouldn't be needed with this amount of technical reasons.


I wonder if a GLEP needs to be written to outline the rights and powers of the wider community, not to overrule developers but a 3rd prong alongside devs and the council
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Besides locally the default?
Lobbying like minded developers, something that shouldn't be needed with this amount of technical reasons.


I wonder if a GLEP needs to be written to outline the rights and powers of the wider community, not to overrule developers but a 3rd prong alongside devs and the council


While I have doubts about this, because the council/foundation seems more like a ghost than an actual factor in the running of Gentoo, perhaps ensuring a portion (2-3 seats) of the council are users could be helpful. Of course it needs to be made clear that the council has teeth...
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steveL
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Lobbying like minded developers, something that shouldn't be needed with this amount of technical reasons.

Jeezus, they're not congressmen.

It shouldn't take a political campaign to do the right thing.
Quote:
I wonder if a GLEP needs to be written to outline the rights and powers of the wider community, not to overrule developers but a 3rd prong alongside devs and the council

This seems like yaf distraction of yours; when what's needed is for developers to wisen up to what the Foundation is, and what the Council is not.
Yggdrasil wrote:
While I have doubts about this, because the council/foundation seems more like a ghost than an actual factor in the running of Gentoo, perhaps ensuring a portion (2-3 seats) of the council are users could be helpful. Of course it needs to be made clear that the council has teeth...

I don't think this would work either; what's really needed are the Proctors the whole community agreed on about 7 years ago, which was spiked thanks to Canelloni, who ofc moved on a year or two later, having shafted the rest of us.

Talk about a stalking-horse, or a fifth-column. It's practically de rigeur.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Politics in software. It's very sad. I don't see any reasons to switch to libav. FFMPEG works very well, don't break anything, devs are open: accepting patches from community, accepting work from libav and they don't do the f.. aggressive advertisment and PR of their work. Even if they are "deprecated" in some of distros, they are still living in my heart. The time will show everything but I can't say that being a parasite, making a fork and then discredit original project is something good. As in everywhere in politics we, the end users of the software, can't see hidden motivations and processes of the action, but we can have our point of view.
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stephan-t
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My recipe

Also work with mpd and mpv.

In make.conf

USE='-libav ffmpeg'

I remove the media-video/libav, media-sound/mpd and media-video/mpv and also remove the virtual/ffmpeg-9-r1

pull the latest virtual/ffmpeg-9-r1, media-video/mpd-0.19.6 and media-video/mpv-0.8.0 or media-video/ffmpeg-2.5.4

(probably i cannot install the 9999 version of mpv maybe, require the ffmpeg-9999)

After the compile work as pretty good and i happy with ffmpeg.

Let's check it with mplayer2 latest.
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tld
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow...I just got burned by this whole thing today. I've been really tied up with work and apparently picked the worst possible time to go a long stretch without updating. Got hit with the perl 5.20 and all sorts of crap at once. Worst list of blockers I've ever seen in 11 years of Gentoo.

Spent forever sorting out what I thought were perl issues...started thinking I was actually never going to get it...when it turned out it was ALL being triggered by the new default libav USE flag. Adding -libav cleared it all up.

I'd also been way to busy to follow any of this and have just been catching up. My position is simple: I know nothing of any advantages or disadvantages and couldn't care less. Forking a project like this and keeping the same library names as the libav project has done is a f***ing dick move plain and simple, and it should have been rejected as the default based on that alone.

Sorry for the harshness, but that move shows NO concern for end users and it already burned me badly. You can pry my -libav from my cold dead fingers shall we say.</pissed-off>

Tom
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leifbk
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I switched from ffmpeg to libav in January 2013, when the announcement about the change first appeared on Planet Gentoo. I had to change from mplayer to mplayer2, as mplayer at the time didn't compile with libav. A couple of weeks ago I had a wtf moment when I saw that mplayer2 was masked as being defunct, and remembered the reason for installing it. I did a google search for "gentoo libav" and found this discussion. After reading it in its entirety, I decided to switch back to ffmpeg. The switch went well, apart from one little snag: In my package.use file I had this line "media-video/libav threads" which made portage insist on pulling in libav again. After changing that line to "media-video/ffmpeg threads" everything was ok.

I can't say that I've got any technical issues with libav, but, as for many others in this thread, the behaviour of the libav project worries me.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am running on the testing amd64 branch. For the last 4 months there hasn't been an update for me that I didn't have to fix libav-libpostproc/ffmpeg issues.
I did everything suggested to switch to libav but still.

I haven't done enough research to support one or another, but what I do know is that Gentoo's quality has gotten significantly worse because of these issues.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems that the common sense finally came to the people in charge: https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/50c181372e098719b2573e7b16c74482.
I guess we will see ffmpeg as default in the following days.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juantxorena, from the link

Quote:
If the libav useflag is already globally enabled or disabled
in /etc/portage/make.conf, then no further action is required.


Always a good idea to specify what you want globally in /etc/make.conf and not rely on the profile. BTW, I completely agree with your choice.
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danomac
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

About time. It makes more sense for the 6-8% of the userbase that use libav to deal with the portage headaches instead of the 90% that use ffmpeg.
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juantxorena
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

danomac wrote:
About time. It makes more sense for the 6-8% of the userbase that use libav to deal with the portage headaches instead of the 90% that use ffmpeg.


Of course, but IMHO the problem is (was) deeper. There are a lot of people who isn't interested in A/V stuff, who doesn't have (yet) enough knowledge about the topic, who doesn't really care or who just simply trust their distro's maintainers. These people saw that libav was the default, so they just took this and tried to have a "sane" system by using the defaults (I was in this camp when the whole ffmpeg-libav started). But soon it was clear that libav was a mistake (or a disgrace, actually), and that caused more problems than solved, e.g. useless forks (mplayer2/smplayer2), developers having to support two almost identical libraries, or worse, only one (the one they thought it was going to be the definitive), and in the gentoo world, headaches every upgrade like the situation with postproc. After a few months, virtually every developer ditched libav and moved to ffmpeg again, but the distros were slower and the users had to deal with these problems for a long time. IMHO the worst offender was debian, or the mantainer in charge of multimedia who was also a developer of libav, who spreaded lies and FUD even in the dpkg of the programs and caused a lot of users or distro mantainers who generally trust debian in almost everything (like me, for example) to keep having stupid problems.

These links have been probably linked here, but if somebody wants to learn more about the whole ffmpeg-libav ordeal, these two links are quite good in explaining it:
The FFmpeg/Libav situation
The FFmpeg/Libav situation (reddit)

TL;DR: libav has to go from everywhere and for ever
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augustin
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juantxorena wrote:
It seems that the common sense finally came to the people in charge: https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/50c181372e098719b2573e7b16c74482.
I guess we will see ffmpeg as default in the following days.


Hmmm....
https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/e6c4a34c8bf56326b8ace226453a35e7
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leifbk
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

augustin wrote:
juantxorena wrote:
It seems that the common sense finally came to the people in charge: https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/50c181372e098719b2573e7b16c74482.
I guess we will see ffmpeg as default in the following days.


Hmmm....
https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/e6c4a34c8bf56326b8ace226453a35e7

I agree that it's a bad day for such news, but this one has a ring of truth about it - contrary to the alleged remake of the Gentoo Website :P
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augustin
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

leifbk wrote:

I agree that it's a bad day for such news, but this one has a ring of truth about it - contrary to the alleged remake of the Gentoo Website :P


Haha! The news about systemd forking the Linux kernel had a ring of truth about it, too!

I guess, on days like these, ring-of-truthiness is not a reliable metrics!
;)
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tld
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juantxorena wrote:
TL;DR: libav has to go from everywhere and for ever
Amen to that. The whole situation with distros jumping to adopt libav just plain stuns me. Does anyone else get the feeling that the open source world is on a trend of rewarding people basically for being dicks? I mean seriously...between this and systemd it sure seems that way:

The Gnome folks create an unnecessary and even malicious dependency on systemd...everyone adopts systemd.

The libav folks fork ffmpeg using the same library names...basically saying "f*** the distros, f*** the users, f*** everyone, we're taking ffmpeg's ball going home"...and everyone supports that? I mean WTF is going on anymore.

Ditto...libav needs to die, just based on that alone.
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WWWW
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:21 pm    Post subject: Solved Reply with quote

oh ok.

I just noticed the pesky libav USE flag incrusted into vlc that caused great havok on my system.

I was gonna ask what's the deal with this but upon reading the last post on this thread got the answer.

thanks!

ps: what about the postproc USE flag? Should I use it?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

leifbk wrote:
augustin wrote:
juantxorena wrote:
It seems that the common sense finally came to the people in charge: https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/50c181372e098719b2573e7b16c74482.
I guess we will see ffmpeg as default in the following days.


Hmmm....
https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/e6c4a34c8bf56326b8ace226453a35e7

I agree that it's a bad day for such news, but this one has a ring of truth about it - contrary to the alleged remake of the Gentoo Website :P

I thought it was the perfect date for this, because of all the hoo-hah about this issue especially here on these forums.

Unfortunately something came up IRL, and I didn't have the time this week to refine the news item, but I plan on doing so this weekend. So the switch will happen soon.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
I thought it was the perfect date for this, because of all the hoo-hah about this issue especially here on these forums.

You don't half make it sound as if developers think users are all drama-queens, or something.

When we all know it's the other way round. If any group could be said to be drama-queens, it's definitely on the "developers", what with their constant insecurity and desire for special treatment.
Quote:
So the switch will happen soon.

Glad to hear it.
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augustin
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:

I thought it was the perfect date for this, because of all the hoo-hah about this issue especially here on these forums.

Unfortunately something came up IRL, and I didn't have the time this week to refine the news item, but I plan on doing so this weekend. So the switch will happen soon.


Thank you very much! :)
你是大陸人嗎
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yngwin
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
yngwin wrote:
I thought it was the perfect date for this, because of all the hoo-hah about this issue especially here on these forums.

You don't half make it sound as if developers think users are all drama-queens, or something.

I can't speak for other developers, but I don't think that. It's just a few users who happen to be very active on the forums. I haven't seen anything like that level of vitriol and conspiracy theorizing on the mailing lists or on IRC for example.

steveL wrote:
When we all know it's the other way round. If any group could be said to be drama-queens, it's definitely on the "developers", what with their constant insecurity and desire for special treatment.

This is pure drama bait, but I'm not going there. Have a nice day!
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

augustin wrote:
yngwin wrote:
So the switch will happen soon.

Thank you very much! :)

You're welcome!

augustin wrote:
你是大陸人嗎

No, I'm a Dutchman teaching English in China.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
It's just a few users who happen to be very active on the forums. I haven't seen anything like that level of vitriol and conspiracy theorizing on the mailing lists or on IRC for example.

Oh please; just a few bad apples amongst the users, and no vitriol on the developer mailing-list. No-one who's been around Gentoo for more than 2 or 3 years is going to believe a word of it. But nice try.
Quote:
This is pure drama bait, but I'm not going there. Have a nice day!

You already went there with "hoo-hah on the forums" from "a few users" (boo hiss!)

Have fun with that, dear boy. ;-)
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