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steveL
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Hah; well you called it:
krinn wrote:
does anyone think we're close to have a new challenger for the "software fiasco of the year" with kdbus?

krinn wrote:
At that time, i didn't want to push my seer capacity as most unbelievers are always shocked when i do ; i think now everyone can just admit it: krinn is a seer!
My only regret, is that it looks like Redhat may not be pushing systemd (like i suppose earlier).
But i'm just a seer, never said i was God (i could, but i will wait until everyone admit my seer status first).

LOL; yes, we admit it.

All hail the Great Krinn, of the Church of Krinn the Divine!
We're not worthy. ;-)
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn,

Maybe we shall see he headline ... seer wins lottery!
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Official" announcement on LKML of redesign and resubmission "when it's ready".

http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1511.1/00247.html
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gwr wrote:
"Official" announcement on LKML of redesign and resubmission "when it's ready".

http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1511.1/00247.html


Wow, what a S. Storm over asking for a simple "what's going on"

And how arrogant and rude the (k)dbus/sysd people are.
And what a huge hypocrite GKH is.

They all need to be bitch slapped back to reality.


Edit to add: From one of the emails by Andy L.
Quote:
As a developer, I'm willing to ask for feedback on ideas and to ask
for feedback on code. In many cases, I've gotten (correct!) feedback
telling me that my design is wrong or needs major changes. I *always*
try to answer such feedback respectfully and, if the reviewers are
right (which they usually are), I won't keep shoving code they don't
like in their face. In fact, IIRC I got my start as a serious x86
developer when I wrote some code and tglx told me that the way I
designed it was unacceptable for upstream. In response, I thought
about what the issues were, asked some questions, and rewrite the
majority of the code. I think I learned a lot from the process, and
the code was vastly improved as a result. If I'd sent substantially
the same patch series three or four more times and then declared that
I was withdrawing it without commenting directly on what I'd changed,
I really doubt that anyone would have taken my next submission
seriously.

Please understand that kdbus' approach to receiving feedback is very
off-putting. Fortunately the vast majority of kernel developers
receive feedback for graciously and transparently, because otherwise
I'd probably just never review anything. Frankly, if I were in the
chain of people through whom the kdbus code would flow to an eventual
home in Linus' tree, I would just say that the developers have used up
my patience as a reviewer and the onus would be on the developers to
demonstrate that it's worth my time to continue thinking about the
code.


I guess since Linus said a while back that he trusted (without qualifying about what) GKH
that GKH thinks he has elevated privileges or status somehow. :roll:
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That thread is golden
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:

And how arrogant and rude the (k)dbus/sysd people are.
And what a huge hypocrite GKH is.


Unbelievable how he trots out the idea that no one is asked up-front design questions and in the immediate reply somone not only quotes the kernel development process, but also state that he himself has asked for just such up-front clarification.

You'd think that if you _failed_ to develop something acceptable for the linux kernel that you'd be more than happy to include them up front on the second go-round.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the denial and defense at Phoronix is beautiful
http://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/phoronix/latest-phoronix-articles/833825-kdbus-is-indeed-going-back-to-the-drawing-board#post833825
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gwr
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
the denial and defense at Phoronix is beautiful
http://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/phoronix/latest-phoronix-articles/833825-kdbus-is-indeed-going-back-to-the-drawing-board#post833825


I find it interesting how people think that its either wise or proper (or both) to develop a kernel component without involving kernel devs from the beginning.

Okay, sure you _can_ do it, but why would you? Why would you not draw upon all the expertise available?

Let's say for the sake of argument that the people who have to approve your stuff are completely wrong about their approach. You still have to work with them to get it approved. I don't get the "here, this code descends from upon high" approach.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
gwr wrote:
"Official" announcement on LKML of redesign and resubmission "when it's ready".

http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1511.1/00247.html


Wow, what a S. Storm over asking for a simple "what's going on"

And how arrogant and rude the (k)dbus/sysd people are.
And what a huge hypocrite GKH is.


Starting to think that GKH has mastered the art of passive-aggressiveness.

Especially in light of what Landley wrote about recently in regards to getting mdev working, and having to deal with GKH and Sievers.

http://www.landley.net/notes-2015.html#05-07-2015

And as i write that i glance once more at the Landley blog, and notice the crap being pulled about stable vs unstable. Where else have we seen that? Oh yeah, systemd. WTF is going on in the Linux world these days?! Is it yet another case of running out of external enemies and so we turn on each other?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

digi_owl wrote:
Starting to think that GKH has mastered the art of passive-aggressiveness. Especially in light of what Landley wrote about recently in regards to getting mdev working, and having to deal with GKH and Sievers.

digi_owl ... that was already posted earlier in this thread and in the politics of systemd thread. Its worth following the various links to the LKML and LWN posts/discussion.

As for "WTF is going on", well, there's money involved, I wouldn't be surprised if GKH's deal with RH includes renumeration reflected by share value (or, some such).

best ... khay
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krinn
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
As for "WTF is going on", well, there's money involved, I wouldn't be surprised if GKH's deal with RH includes renumeration reflected by share value (or, some such).

Never underestimate what ego or need for fame can let people do too.
Hookers have money goal, that's a valid goal if you have none ; but the facebook generation is fucking in pool on public tv just to read their names in some trash magazine...
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
digi_owl wrote:
Starting to think that GKH has mastered the art of passive-aggressiveness. Especially in light of what Landley wrote about recently in regards to getting mdev working, and having to deal with GKH and Sievers.

digi_owl ... that was already posted earlier in this thread and in the politics of systemd thread. Its worth following the various links to the LKML and LWN posts/discussion.


Knew that, was too lazy to dig up the relevant post and quote it. Feel free to sue me.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

digi_owl wrote:
khayyam wrote:
... that was already posted earlier in this thread and in the politics of systemd thread. Its worth following the various links to the LKML and LWN posts/discussion.

Knew that, was too lazy to dig up the relevant post and quote it. Feel free to sue me.

digi_owl ... I point it out, and provide links, as not everyone reads the entire thread, and if a subject has been brought up, or discussed, then it serves no purpose to repeat such discussion ... pointing it out prevents things becoming repetitive, which is something long threads like this are prone to. So, sue yourself.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
As for "WTF is going on", well, there's money involved, I wouldn't be surprised if GKH's deal with RH includes renumeration reflected by share value (or, some such).


I've long maintained that GKH was getting something for his efforts in getting kdbus into the kernel.
He even violates his own advice about how things are done in the kernel when it comes to this issue.
So there's definitely some form of pay, whether stock options, a "job" directly with RH, or something else.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
And how arrogant and rude the (k)dbus/sysd people are.
And what a huge hypocrite GKH is.

They all need to be bitch slapped back to reality.

++
gwr wrote:
Unbelievable how he trots out the idea that no one is asked up-front design questions and in the immediate reply someone not only
quotes the kernel development process, but also state that he himself has asked for just such up-front clarification.

Indeed.
Quote:
You'd think that if you _failed_ to develop something acceptable for the linux kernel that you'd be more than happy to include them up front on the second go-round.

Yeah Herriman's replies are pathetic, as Zjilstra points out.

And ofc his reply to that, is even worse. The chutzpah is amazing.
He says "No," in the same idiotic way he says "Correct," instead of addressing the substantive: of how he's going to plug whatever gaping security-hole had been pointed out.

So, Anon is absolutely correct in his summation, imo; just a shame that Torvalds feels unable to deliver the type of final "No, you numpty" he would normally, due to his perfectly respectable sense of loyalty to Kroah-Hartmann.

Apparatchiks, and sociopaths, always use your decency against you, ime. Losing your decency, is ofc the worst thing you can do.
You're supposed to recuse yourself, instead, if you feel conflicted (which is where the BDFL model falls down: no-one else feels like it's their place to deliver a resounding "verbal" warning, so "friends" can take advantage, and often will if they see personal gain in it.)

As ever, it's the non-technical things which trip the geeks up, as they all the while delude themselves, that being apolitical puts them above the crowd, rather than at their meagre mercy.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
As for "WTF is going on", well, there's money involved, I wouldn't be surprised if GKH's deal with RH includes renumeration reflected by share value (or, some such).

krinn wrote:
Never underestimate what ego or need for fame can let people do too.
Hookers have money goal, that's a valid goal if you have none; but the facebook generation is fucking in pool on public tv just to read their names in some trash magazine...

LOL: that is classic.

Though I think it explains the fanbois, more than the people who have stock options (possibly vested) in RedHat, given to kernel hackers at the time of their IPO.

Definitely one to draw your kids' attention to, though might want to remove/edit the first bit. ;-)
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
The chutzpah is amazing.


And here's the disheartening thing about it all: Sarah Sharp gets wide-spread press for being criticized by Linus based on his mannerisms, regardless of how correct he is, however few in the media surrounding the industry so much as bats an eye when something technically outrageous is written using the single word "No".

There are lots of little unsolved commentaries on programming in the computing world that we can argue about for hours. Just recently Linus complained voiciferously about the readability of GCC overflow checking.

What surprises me is that he has been all but silent on the entire subject of kdbus from a technical perspective. Is it just easier to argue about syntax? Does he not see anything until he has to merge it?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
The chutzpah is amazing.

gwr wrote:
And here's the disheartening thing about it all: Sarah Sharp gets wide-spread press for being criticized by Linus based on his mannerisms, regardless of how correct he is, however few in the media surrounding the industry so much as bats an eye when something technically outrageous is written using the single word "No".

Heh, good point (or the word "Correct";)

It's a funny one, because on one hand, I do not recognise Torvalds' twisting of the term "professional", and indeed do not like abuse of users or newbs one iota; OTOH I have a tendency to use exactly the same sort of language, when I think I'm dealing with someone who should know better, either because they're experienced, or because they are laying claim to some sort of authority they are simply unqualified to claim, and they're also promulgating nonsense.

With someone experienced, I take it for granted that they don't ego-attach to their code, nor do they have any problem with calling crap code a load of crap.
Sometimes I point out to them that they knew it in their gut already, which is why they were running it by me, rather than simply committing it; if it's the first time I've carried on like that, or they appear to be quite sensitive to criticism.
It does not stop me expressing myself first though: I'd rather avoid any doubt, as far too often people (especially USians, I've found) "explain away" any criticism capable of being misunderstood.

This was quite hard for me, when I first started doing the "internet generation" thing, mainly because British English is so couched with little phrases designed to soften the blow of anything that might even be thought of as criticism (likely due to the feudal nature of the society; still: not alone there, any more. ;)

"Oh well he said something nice there" seems to be what that type of person latches on to, not the surrounding criticism, that only someone with no sensitivity whatsoever could miss, or at least so I used to think.

Nonetheless, there is a world of difference between attacking code, and attacking a person; criticism of behaviour is harder, and must be put formally, without losing its clarity, or it is far too easy to tip into attacking the person directly, without holding out any hope for them to change, or indeed any sort of concession that you might just be misinterpreting. (The last is less of an issue when someone has been conducting a campaign/vendetta against you.)
Quote:
There are lots of little unsolved commentaries on programming in the computing world that we can argue about for hours. Just recently Linus complained voiciferously about the readability of GCC overflow checking.

What surprises me is that he has been all but silent on the entire subject of kdbus from a technical perspective. Is it just easier to argue about syntax? Does he not see anything until he has to merge it?

Hmm to me that reads a lot like acting-out (or deflection): iow, it's what he wants to say about kdbust, but his "rational" side won't let him:
Linux Torbalds wrote:
[Performance is] a f*cking bad excuse for that braindamage.

I'm sorry, but we don't add idiotic new interfaces like this for idiotic new code like that.

Yes, yes, if this had stayed inside the network layer I would never have noticed. But since I *did* notice, I really don't want to pull this.
In fact, I want to make it clear to *everybody* that code like this is completely unacceptable.
Anybody who thinks that code like this is "safe" and "secure" because it uses fancy [SELinux LSM modules that are in fact less secure] is so far out to lunch that it's not even funny.

Get rid of it. And I don't *ever* want to see that shit again.

Linux
;-)
I mean, by the end, he's conceding that actually the gcc interface is fine, so it seems to me the above-mangled rant is about something else, which could ofc be anything.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
and indeed do not like abuse of users or newbs one iota; OTOH I have a tendency to use exactly the same sort of language, when I think I'm dealing with someone who should know better, either because they're experienced, or because they are laying claim to some sort of authority they are simply unqualified to claim, and they're also promulgating nonsense


I'd rather there be no abuse as well. However, if it came down to censoring debate rather than tolerating assholes, I would prefer to tolerate the assholes than risk the loss of liberalism in technology. It is often _very_ easy for immoral people to squeeze through the cracks of political correct speech.

steveL wrote:
This was quite hard for me, when I first started doing the "internet generation" thing, mainly because British English is so couched with little phrases designed to soften the blow of anything that might even be thought of as criticism (likely due to the feudal nature of the society; still: not alone there, any more. ;)


Hey, I'm Canadian, so I inherited not only the British demeanor, but added some additional colonial friendliness to the mix.

Still, there are professional people I am -very- direct with simply because they have taken advantage of the abiguity of political correctness in the past.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting post http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1511.1/02782.html
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Interesting post http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1511.1/02782.html

Andy start review and found problems, he submit the problems, they discard them.
Now they are telling they are rewriting it all (as the "discard them" strategy has fail) taking problems that were submits.
And they will send the diff once done for review.
Nobody is or should still keep reviewing what was submit, as it might be obsolete once the rewrite is done, and because it's not an easy job without doc

That's good strategy, if you want review it ; forget what was review (mostly by Andy) and review the original + patches again from start or just review the patches and accept what wasn't review as correct.

I wonder if anyone will have the faith to review it from start (because i don't think Andy will have it).
If none do it, and they only review the patches, then only them will be good, but what wasn't review will remain buggy.

And without doc ; just the changes will be hard to review, increasing chance anyone will only review the changes only.
That's what he is telling, he is already discourage just by the task of reviewing the changes.

Linus really should drop all this crap, so they will comes back with something valid, easy to review, and fresh (to boost anyone faith back into getting into that huge review work).
With some hope, they won't even comeback and we're done with this crap!
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO the best case scenario re: kdbus is that Linus refuses to put it into the kernel.

Then RH or whoever can carry the patches against the kernel, the same as bfs, reiser4, etc.

This way any problems that come from the interaction between kdbus and the kernel
will reflect on RH and staff not the kernel people or at least it should work that way.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
[by the end, he's conceding that actually the gcc interface is fine, so it seems to me the above-mangled rant is about something else, which could ofc be anything.


He concedes it's necessity for multiplication, but there's no reason to have that logic otherwise.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
and indeed do not like abuse of users or newbs one iota; OTOH I have a tendency to use exactly the same sort of language, when I think I'm dealing with someone who should know better

gwr wrote:
I'd rather there be no abuse as well. However, if it came down to censoring debate rather than tolerating assholes, I would prefer to tolerate the assholes than risk the loss of liberalism in technology. It is often _very_ easy for immoral people to squeeze through the cracks of political correct speech.

Indeed; though it only really works when you have a politically-naive crowd, like most geeks, and nowadays afaict most everyone, unfortunately.

Which is why it's so important that all of us protect our community. No point relying on fresh-faced IT graduates to have a real clue.
After all, that's why "burn-and-churn" can even work enough for it to be a phrase: because they're typically so goddamned naive.
Quote:
Hey, I'm Canadian, so I inherited not only the British demeanour, but added some additional colonial friendliness to the mix.

Heh; I'm glad you knew what I meant from your own experience.
Quote:
Still, there are professional people I am -very- direct with simply because they have taken advantage of the ambiguity of political correctness in the past.

Yeah, though I think it's sensible not to allow politically-incorrect apparatchiks, to remove all sense of what "politically-correct" really meant, when it first came into use as a term, afair in the late 80s.

In the first instance, it simply meant: don't use racist or sexist language, and ofc this widened with the various "liberation struggles" that were, and still are ongoing. In essence: don't be an asshole (as these things usually amount to.)

That apparatchiks twist it, like they twist everything, to suit their ends, doesn't mean we should suddenly allow tolerance to mean tolerance of abuse, which is a very typical sociopath argument: "My right to be a shithead" to anyone and everyone is the same as other people's rights to say, talk the truth to power. (khayyam has written this up, but I can't find the posts.)
OFC it's all 'amusing', since only "the little people" are affected: "power-players" just keep on playing the same game.

WRT a balance, I think IRC does well overall, where you have voluntary ops who've been recruited to the position, and not asked for it.
So do these forums, but I wouldn't extend that to other web-forums, in the way I'd suggest someone explore non-gentoo channels on freenode.
steveL wrote:
by the end, he's conceding that actually the gcc interface is fine, so it seems to me the above-mangled rant is about something else, which could ofc be anything.

gwr wrote:
He concedes it's necessity for multiplication, but there's no reason to have that logic otherwise.

Oh I'm fine doing my overflows by hand, but then I also much prefer unsigned, from asm days.

I don't like signed-overflow being undefined-behaviour in C; but then we insist on 2's comp as well, which isn't guaranteed by C, but effectively is by POSIX (via mandated exact-width signed types, which C does require to be 2's comp, and available if provided. C99 7.18.1.1.)

In general, it's not just multiplication; that's wrt unsigned such as the calloc case. Otherwise, sure ((x = u + N) < u) is simple enough not to need a wrapper.
Not that the logic is unneeded, mind: just that it can be written clearly without an intervening wrapper that obfuscates what most C coders recognise as a Carry test on unsigned addition. Though you're right that it's more common to test against a lower maximum.

For portability, you have to do the subtraction from max before addition of signed, for instance, unless you're able to rely on/mandate signed-overflow as defined behaviour (eg: -fwrapv, which also specifies 2's comp) in which case you can just check the sign of the result. And ofc you have to regard the incoming sign.

Trickier still with floating-point, ofc, though that's what lib routines are for.

So I'm quite happy to have it in the compiler, given that only it really knows what applies at runtime, but I'd still much rather have a decent set of flags; testing Carry is all this is really about.

edit: I hate side-effects ;)


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truekaiser
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Joined: 05 Mar 2004
Posts: 753

PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

digi_owl wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
gwr wrote:
"Official" announcement on LKML of redesign and resubmission "when it's ready".

http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1511.1/00247.html


Wow, what a S. Storm over asking for a simple "what's going on"

And how arrogant and rude the (k)dbus/sysd people are.
And what a huge hypocrite GKH is.


Starting to think that GKH has mastered the art of passive-aggressiveness.

Especially in light of what Landley wrote about recently in regards to getting mdev working, and having to deal with GKH and Sievers.

http://www.landley.net/notes-2015.html#05-07-2015

And as i write that i glance once more at the Landley blog, and notice the crap being pulled about stable vs unstable. Where else have we seen that? Oh yeah, systemd. WTF is going on in the Linux world these days?! Is it yet another case of running out of external enemies and so we turn on each other?


I read that, and think. They are using instability as a form of lock in by only letting udev dev's know ahead of time what the api will change to.
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