| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
szatox
Advocate
Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Posts: 3679
|
 Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2025 9:08 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| bent wrote: | | mrbassie wrote: | | Danger hair. What do you see? |
Good heavens, a hairdo! All of a sudden, your "thousand words" is starting to look pretty shallow. I trust you're familiar with the term "thousand"?
* I know it's about more than the haircut for you, I'm not stupid and I've got you worked out. But if all you're prepared to put to words is vague allusions, you're just being a coward.
~~/snip/~~
To say nothing of the actual fork, Alpine (et al.) want to keep people like you - who clearly hate them anyway - out of their communities, to stop their discussion boards filling with Facebook-esque garbage, such as your contributions in this thread. You might (pretend to) not see why, but they do, and I do too. You don't care whether Alpine adopt Xlibre or not, you're not going to use their distro anyway. For you, it's just more fuel for some weird persecution complex. |
I'll help you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aposematism 
Well, I had you worked out back at "divisive".
Then you got my hopes up for a while, but I'm still waiting for your replay on framing. Are you going to raise to the challenge you yourself issued, or will you let let it fade away?
And although I personally don't mind a good shitposting session once in a while, can you tell me why did you get so worked up about what people on the outside do? You're probably right mrbiassie doesn't care what Apline does, and neither do I. But you're accusing him (and me, an a bunch of other people, unless I missed some personal beef with him specifically) of hating Alpine, while we were just discussing a particular event which happened on IRC, which at the time was actually related to the topic of xlibre.
Have you noticed that not a single person told them that they must package xlibre?
If they can have their perspective, why can't we have ours, er? Can't we disagree with their reasoning? Why is is so important to you that people working together on one thing must agree on everything else too?
I don't care what people believe as long as it doesn't get in the way. Mesa and Wine are doing pretty well, so I'm not interested in their politics and I'm not going to even verify any claims made about them. But I know to avoid anything that is advertised by woke terminology, because it shows they're fixated on the wrong things, ignore merit, and will totally botch it. Who is the one pushing his ideology on everyone else, er? "CoC violation if anyone brings up xlibre again!!!!!"
| bent wrote: | | szatox wrote: | 1) Distracted from what?
|
A calm and reasoned discussion on the XLibre fork, as opposed one built on hand-waving and hyperbole, talk of "civil war", "X11 dying", unnamed "somebodies" with their finger on the scales. Crafty use of the word "following" to make it appear Ubuntu and GNOME are reacting, when the reality is far more boring, that GNOME has been planning the deprecation for over a year and Ubuntu is merely swimming with the current. |
_________________
Make Computing Fun Again |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
mrbassie
l33t
Joined: 31 May 2013
Posts: 855
Location: Go past the sign for cope, right at the sign for seethe. If you see the target you've missed it.
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2025 9:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
| bent wrote: | | mrbassie wrote: | | Danger hair. What do you see? |
Good heavens, a hairdo! All of a sudden, your "thousand words" is starting to look pretty shallow. I trust you're familiar with the term "thousand"?
Yet of the person at the centre of all this, you apparently know nothing:
| mrbassie wrote: | | Can I just ask what causes you to think he's "crazy", I know nothing about the guy. |
I can see why someone such as yourself finds the politics of open source so disorienting. The sheer indignity of having to consider an issue any deeper than how someone looks*, gosh, it must be so dizzying. Lucky for you there's people like Lunduke to distill it all down in the form of regular YouTube sermons to spare you the inconvenience of thinking for yourself. |
Why does politics have anything to do with writing code? There's no politics assigned to designing comfortable screwdriver handles.
| bent wrote: |
* I know it's about more than the haircut for you, I'm not stupid and I've got you worked out. But if all you're prepared to put to words is vague allusions, you're just being a coward. |
Danger hair points to extreme left wing weirdo narcissist activist messing everything they can touch up for everybody else. The instant I read that code of conduct threat I knew exactly the type of person who made it. I then discovered they look a lot like I imagined they would. Is that clear enough to fit your personal concept of bravery? Probably not, it wasn't stunning. I must try harder.
This sort of crap is exactly why codes of conduct exist, not to address it but to facillitate it.
| bent wrote: | | To say nothing of the actual fork, Alpine (et al.) want to keep people like you - who clearly hate them anyway - out of their communities, to stop their discussion boards filling with Facebook-esque garbage, such as your contributions in this thread. You might (pretend to) not see why, but they do, and I do too. You don't care whether Alpine adopt Xlibre or not, you're not going to use their distro anyway. For you, it's just more fuel for some weird persecution complex. |
You clearly have a very high opinion of yourself.
Thanks for the free therapy session. You're either hugely generous or determinedly anti-capitalist. Either way thanks. Do you do struggle sessions? Asking for a friend.
I don't acually hate anyone other than Tony Blair and one ex boss. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Hu
Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 23629
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2025 2:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Following up on Ariadne specifically, that user was quoted in LWN (original post on Mastodon (JavaScript required, unfortunately)) describing the situation in a bit more detail. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6335
Location: Dallas area
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2025 3:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
From one of Hu's links
| Quote: | Just because someone says they are maintaining an X.org fork, doesn't mean the X.org fork is maintained well enough to switch a distro to it.
— David Airlie |
100% agree on this, especially when they are still in the remodeling phase (early demolition from what I can tell)
Even at that, I wish Xlibre well, I'm not just going to hold my breath expecting a good end result.
_________________
UM780, 6.14 zen kernel, gcc 13, openrc, wayland |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sMueggli
l33t
Joined: 03 Sep 2022
Posts: 624
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2025 3:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Hu wrote: | | I am inclined to grant some benefit of the doubt when dealing with IRC logs, since people may write things more freely in realtime chat than they would in a forum post where they have time to think, review, and rewrite before sharing. Even so, there was a line that I felt was excessive: |
After reading the CoC of Alpine (https://www.alpinelinux.org/community/code-of-conduct.html) it looks like Ariadne cannot pursue a code of conduct violation, because the CoC does not forbid merging xlibre. And the CoC is indeed forbidding quite a lot to contribute "to an open [sic], [...] and healthy community". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
krumpf
Apprentice
Joined: 15 Jul 2018
Posts: 240
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stefan11111
l33t
Joined: 29 Jan 2023
Posts: 989
Location: Romania
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6335
Location: Dallas area
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2025 7:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Seriously?
Wouldn't that be a question for ... I don't know, the xlibre people on github
_________________
UM780, 6.14 zen kernel, gcc 13, openrc, wayland |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stefan11111
l33t
Joined: 29 Jan 2023
Posts: 989
Location: Romania
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2025 7:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Anon-E-moose wrote: | Seriously?
Wouldn't that be a question for ... I don't know, the xlibre people on github |
It's a patch from gentoo, which is still in the gentoo repo.
Perhaps one of the gentoo devs knows why it was added, or why it's still there.
_________________
My overlay: https://github.com/stefan11111/stefan_overlay
INSTALL_MASK="/etc/systemd /lib/systemd /usr/lib/systemd /usr/lib/modules-load.d *udev* /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d *tmpfiles* /var/lib/dbus /usr/bin/gdbus /lib/udev" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zucca
Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 4197
Location: Rasi, Finland
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2025 8:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
That update probably isn't going to land on xorg X11 (master branch), but to XWayland.
Xlibre, however seemed to merge that one already, if the comments under that article are to believed.
_________________
..: Zucca :..
| My gentoo installs: | init=/sbin/openrc-init
-systemd -logind -elogind seatd |
| Quote: | | I am NaN! I am a man! |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chiitoo
Administrator
Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 2808
Location: Here and Away Again
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2025 8:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Don't know about today, but this seems to be the origin here:
| Quote: | Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn gentoo-dev 2013-01-09 23:55:43 EET
Created attachment 335002 [details, diff]
unloadsubmodule.patch
Patch that fixes X server hang on startup on ia64. |
https://bugs.gentoo.org/447152#c12
_________________
Kindest of regardses. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6335
Location: Dallas area
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2025 8:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| stefan11111 wrote: | | Anon-E-moose wrote: | Seriously?
Wouldn't that be a question for ... I don't know, the xlibre people on github |
It's a patch from gentoo, which is still in the gentoo repo.
Perhaps one of the gentoo devs knows why it was added, or why it's still there. |
But why would gentoo know why xlibre took the patch and applied it.
Maybe he has an old ia64 machine? *shrugs*
_________________
UM780, 6.14 zen kernel, gcc 13, openrc, wayland |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mrbassie
l33t
Joined: 31 May 2013
Posts: 855
Location: Go past the sign for cope, right at the sign for seethe. If you see the target you've missed it.
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2025 8:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
So anyway;
@asturm: what do you see? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pietinger
Moderator
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 5869
Location: Bavaria
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2025 8:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
A not so friendly conclusion by the moderation:
If a post no longer appears in the thread (because it was moved to dustbin), the thread creator can respond to it in several ways:
1. he asks in a friendly and polite way what was wrong with the post, or
2. he knows that the post was wrong and stops writing such posts, or
3. he doesn't care and thinks he can write whatever he wants.
I have to realize that number 1 and 2 do not apply ... but number 3.
Since my colleague @Banana has already posted a reminder in this thread, I will lock this thread for 24 hours. Users who miss a post should take note of this notice:
In the case of number 3, moderation will take action.
[Edit 2025-06-04] ... and unlocked again ... for discussions related to the thread title.
If anyone feels provoked, it is advisable to ignore it, because complete disregard is usually the hardest thing for a provocateur to bear ... it could also lead to an escalation, which is of course undesirable (and would have to be prevented by the moderation team).
_________________
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/User:Pietinger |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stefan11111
l33t
Joined: 29 Jan 2023
Posts: 989
Location: Romania
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2025 9:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Chiitoo wrote: |
Don't know about today, but this seems to be the origin here:
| Quote: | Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn gentoo-dev 2013-01-09 23:55:43 EET
Created attachment 335002 [details, diff]
unloadsubmodule.patch
Patch that fixes X server hang on startup on ia64. |
https://bugs.gentoo.org/447152#c12 |
thanks
_________________
My overlay: https://github.com/stefan11111/stefan_overlay
INSTALL_MASK="/etc/systemd /lib/systemd /usr/lib/systemd /usr/lib/modules-load.d *udev* /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d *tmpfiles* /var/lib/dbus /usr/bin/gdbus /lib/udev" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GDH-gentoo
Veteran
Joined: 20 Jul 2019
Posts: 1924
Location: South America
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2025 9:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
So, this can only work as a replacement if the combination of a Wayland compositor + rootful Xwayland (if I understand correctly, so that a separate X11 window manager can be run) is fully equivalent to a real X server? Can it be equivalent?
_________________
| NeddySeagoon wrote: | I'm not a witch, I'm a retired electronics engineer  |
| Ionen wrote: | | As a packager I just don't want things to get messier with weird build systems and multiple toolchains requirements though |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stefan11111
l33t
Joined: 29 Jan 2023
Posts: 989
Location: Romania
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2025 10:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| GDH-gentoo wrote: |
So, this can only work as a replacement if the combination of a Wayland compositor + rootful Xwayland (if I understand correctly, so that a separate X11 window manager can be run) is fully equivalent to a real X server? Can it be equivalent? |
It can be used as a real X server, because it uses a real X server, Xwayland.
The way I understand it, wayback is the wayland compositor, which deals with hardware-specific stuff, and Xwayland just outputs to the wayland output from wayback.
As I said in another post it this thread, I see no advantage with doing this, while I see a lot of disadvantages.
I suspect it will have trouble with drivers that don't use drm, so it will be less versatile that other X servers, and I also suspect this will be slower that a pure X server on the hardware where it does run.
_________________
My overlay: https://github.com/stefan11111/stefan_overlay
INSTALL_MASK="/etc/systemd /lib/systemd /usr/lib/systemd /usr/lib/modules-load.d *udev* /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d *tmpfiles* /var/lib/dbus /usr/bin/gdbus /lib/udev" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GDH-gentoo
Veteran
Joined: 20 Jul 2019
Posts: 1924
Location: South America
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 3:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| stefan11111 wrote: | | The way I understand it, wayback is the wayland compositor, which deals with hardware-specific stuff, and Xwayland just outputs to the wayland output from wayback. |
There isn't much documentation, but judging from the single C source file, technically it seems to be indeed a Wayland compositor based on TinyWL, so I suppose that yes, Xwayland talks to the compositor, and the compositor manages hardware the Wayland way, but:
- This compositor doesn't really expect to talk to native Wayland applications, only to Xwayland. So it can get away with minimal 'Waylanding' (using wlroots).
- It spawns Xwayland in rootful mode (and full screen), instead of rootless mode (Xwayland -rootless) like a typical (?) compositor.
_________________
| NeddySeagoon wrote: | | I'm not a witch, I'm a retired electronics engineer |
| Ionen wrote: | | As a packager I just don't want things to get messier with weird build systems and multiple toolchains requirements though |
Last edited by GDH-gentoo on Sat Jul 05, 2025 12:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sMueggli
l33t
Joined: 03 Sep 2022
Posts: 624
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 8:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| stefan11111 wrote: | | I suspect it will have trouble with drivers that don't use drm, so it will be less versatile that other X servers, |
Which hardware is affected by this?
| stefan11111 wrote: | | and I also suspect this will be slower that a pure X server on the hardware where it does run. |
How would you measure the "speed"? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stefan11111
l33t
Joined: 29 Jan 2023
Posts: 989
Location: Romania
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 1:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| sMueggli wrote: | | stefan11111 wrote: | | I suspect it will have trouble with drivers that don't use drm, so it will be less versatile that other X servers, |
Which hardware is affected by this?
|
My guess is everything that doesn't use drmkms, so nvidia, fbdev and vesa, and probably others.
On my laptop with an intel iGPU/nvidia dGPU, I've had a lot of problems using modesetting.
I switched to xf86-video-intel, and everything worked.
I suspect things like this will cause problems on wayback.
| Quote: |
| stefan11111 wrote: | | and I also suspect this will be slower that a pure X server on the hardware where it does run. |
How would you measure the "speed"? |
For example, fire up a game and measure fps.
Or open a youtube video and see if it plays right.
I keep saying 'I suspect' because I never tried wayback.
_________________
My overlay: https://github.com/stefan11111/stefan_overlay
INSTALL_MASK="/etc/systemd /lib/systemd /usr/lib/systemd /usr/lib/modules-load.d *udev* /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d *tmpfiles* /var/lib/dbus /usr/bin/gdbus /lib/udev" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sMueggli
l33t
Joined: 03 Sep 2022
Posts: 624
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 5:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| stefan11111 wrote: | | sMueggli wrote: | | stefan11111 wrote: | | I suspect it will have trouble with drivers that don't use drm, so it will be less versatile that other X servers, |
Which hardware is affected by this?
|
My guess is everything that doesn't use drmkms, so nvidia, fbdev and vesa, and probably others.
On my laptop with an intel iGPU/nvidia dGPU, I've had a lot of problems using modesetting.
I switched to xf86-video-intel, and everything worked.
I suspect things like this will cause problems on wayback. |
Ok, Nvidia might indeed create problems. But that seems normal on Linux.
I doubt that anyone uses fbdev (or vesa) after the kernel is loaded for a desktop system.
And xf86-video-intel is only 2D.
| stefan11111 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| stefan11111 wrote: | | and I also suspect this will be slower that a pure X server on the hardware where it does run. |
How would you measure the "speed"? |
For example, fire up a game and measure fps.
Or open a youtube video and see if it plays right.
I keep saying 'I suspect' because I never tried wayback. |
Yes, you can measure the FPS. And I guess wayback is able to produce 60 FPS. But only a test will show.
But I do not think that "seeing a video" is a good way to measure. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zucca
Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 4197
Location: Rasi, Finland
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2025 9:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
Meanwhile at xorg/freedesktop: wayback moved under freedesktop gitlab.
| README.md wrote: | It is intended to eventually replace the classic X.Org server, thus reducing
maintenance burden of X11 applications, but a lot of work needs to be done first. |
... so it looks like xorg/freedesktop will stop supporting the X11/xorg server a little bit sooner. But at least they keep backwards compatibility to full X11 DEs... via wayland, but still better than nothing.
Time to wait how things progress...
_________________
..: Zucca :..
| My gentoo installs: | init=/sbin/openrc-init
-systemd -logind -elogind seatd |
| Quote: | | I am NaN! I am a man! |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sMueggli
l33t
Joined: 03 Sep 2022
Posts: 624
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2025 4:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Zucca wrote: |
| README.md wrote: | It is intended to eventually replace the classic X.Org server, thus reducing
maintenance burden of X11 applications, but a lot of work needs to be done first. |
... so it looks like xorg/freedesktop will stop supporting the X11/xorg server a little bit sooner. |
Aren't you over-interpreting too much? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6335
Location: Dallas area
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2025 4:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
From wayback's README
| Quote: | Wayback is a X11 compatibility layer which allows for running full X11 desktop environments using Wayland components. It is essentially a stub compositor which provides just enough Wayland capabilities to host a rootful Xwayland server.
It is intended to eventually replace the classic X.Org server, thus reducing maintenance burden of X11 applications, but a lot of work needs to be done first.
Wayback is an experimental state: expect breaking changes, and lots of bugs. |
It's a WIP, nowhere near ready to retire the Xorg server, this is for future proofing for those who need X whatever the reason.
_________________
UM780, 6.14 zen kernel, gcc 13, openrc, wayland |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zucca
Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 4197
Location: Rasi, Finland
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2025 5:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| sMueggli wrote: | | Aren't you over-interpreting too much? |
Yeah, I might.
My point is that, when this wayback is in acceptable level of stability and fuctionality, freedesktop has no reason to touch xorg-server code at all.
But who knows if this happens even sooner if XLibre gets their things sorted out.
I, for one, would be interested test out Xlibre if/when they get to clean up the code.
_________________
..: Zucca :..
| My gentoo installs: | init=/sbin/openrc-init
-systemd -logind -elogind seatd |
| Quote: | | I am NaN! I am a man! |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
Gentoo Chat
