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Mr.Grim
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:26 am    Post subject: Invasion of FreeBSD! Reply with quote

HELP! We have to stop all those people who are moving from gentoo to FreeBSD (BLEAGH!) They all clame the portage is "Better" and BSD is "Faster and more stable". How do we convince them to stick with Gentoo?
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regeya
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:43 am    Post subject: Re: Invasion of FreeBSD! Reply with quote

Mr.Grim wrote:
HELP! We have to stop all those people who are moving from gentoo to FreeBSD (BLEAGH!) They all clame the portage is "Better" and BSD is "Faster and more stable". How do we convince them to stick with Gentoo?


If they're wanting a workstation OS, remind them that FreeBSD is intended to be used as a server, and really isn't optimized for desktop use.

Also, Linux tends to be more bleeding-edge than any of the BSDs, and Gentoo more so than the average Linux distro.

They're falling for the tunable kernel features, the half-truth of "there's many Linux distributions, but only one FreeBSD" mantra, and the taunts of "Gentoo is pointless" you sometimes hear from BSD zealots, aren't they?

Ports has some nice features that portage (currently) lacks, and portupgrade adds some more nice features as well, but unless someone starts making workstation-oriented tunables for the FreeBSD kernel, I don't think I'll be switching any time soon. :wink:
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mezz
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uh, why can't you just let people choice what OS they want to use? :roll:

Yes, of course, FreeBSD is better.... :P :wink:
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gyratedotorg
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the myth that freebsd doesnt make a good workstation is umm.. a myth. ive happily used it for years.

interestingly enough, i just installed gentoo for the first time today, and from what i can tell, gentoo is "freebsd for linux users." im trying to figure out what advantages it has over freebsd. can anyone elighten me? =)
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Mr.Grim
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like how i can just type emerge program rather than, whereis program, cd /usr/ports/x11-misc/program, make install.
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mezz
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr.Grim wrote:
I like how i can just type emerge program rather than, whereis program, cd /usr/ports/x11-misc/program, make install.

That's all?
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Genone
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mezz wrote:
Yes, of course, FreeBSD is better.... :P :wink:

And that from "Tux's lil' helper" :wink:
Of course anyone should choose the OS they want to use. This isn't a contest "who has the biggest d... -- ehm -- userbase"
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Mr.Grim
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mezz wrote:
Mr.Grim wrote:
I like how i can just type emerge program rather than, whereis program, cd /usr/ports/x11-misc/program, make install.

That's all?


No, I was just pointing out an advantage to gyratedotorg.
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avenj
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This comes up all the time.

For my personal opinions on BSD and justifications of it, see this post:
pilla-modified to fit window size
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mezz
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

avenj wrote:
Portage lays things out like this: there's
/usr/portage/<category>/<package>, and in <package> there's ebuilds for each version.

I don't understand, what do you mean?

avenj wrote:
Makefiles are much messier than bash scripts.

As you have said, it's personal option matter. I personal think Makefile is so simple and cleaner than bash scripts. Also, it's way way flexible than Portage, but I have read about Portage 2 that is supposed to be improvement on the flexible and etc. For the best example what Portage lack is flexible on prefix.

avenj wrote:
Ports has silly things like separate packages for different configuration options - why do I want to deal with installing either ghostscript or ghostscript-nox11 when, with Portage, I can enable/disable X support via USE="X"? Portage, in general, provides much more extensive flexibility and ease of compiletime configuration.

Umm, no.. They aren't seperate.. The ghostscript-nox11 is just a slave port that will call on ghostscript with the WITHOUT_X11= yes define like you said USE="X". This way, you don't have to edit to add it in the make.conf if you don't want other stuff to depend on X. Also, allow other port to depend on the slave. For the best example, gnome-btdownload depend on py-bittorrent-core, a slave port on py-bittorrent, without require wxPython (lesser dependencies). I wish Makefile can reply the define to other Makefile without create a slave port.

Of course, USE is better, easier and simple. Either are easy to me, anyway.

avenj wrote:
Dealing with separate CVS trees to get different versions is much more annoying than simply picking which KEYWORDS= setting you want to accept ebuilds from.

Uh? There's no different version of ports tree, which there's only one branch. If you want the bleeding version of app, use any port with the suffex of *-snapshot, *-devel or whatever.
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Spawn of Lovechild
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 12:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Invasion of FreeBSD! Reply with quote

Mr.Grim wrote:
HELP! We have to stop all those people who are moving from gentoo to FreeBSD (BLEAGH!) They all clame the portage is "Better" and BSD is "Faster and more stable". How do we convince them to stick with Gentoo?


Why??

Believe it or not some people actually prefer FreeBSD over Gentoo - I'm one btw. Each system has it's advantages. Just stop being one of those moaners "BSD is dying" slashdot looser types.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mezz wrote:
avenj wrote:
Portage lays things out like this: there's
/usr/portage/<category>/<package>, and in <package> there's ebuilds for each version.

I don't understand, what do you mean?

Take the ebuild for XFree86-4.3.0-r5. It's located at /usr/portage/x11-base/xfree/xfree-4.3.0-r5.ebuild.

So, the <category> is x11-base, <package> is xfree. Within that, there are 5 different ebuilds, for different versions of the package.

As another example, GCC 3.3.2-r7: /usr/portage/sys-devel/gcc/gcc-3.3.2-r7.ebuild
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The Kernel
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mezz wrote:

Yes, of course, FreeBSD is better.... :P :wink:


That's why FreeBSD is tux's lil' root server :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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regeya
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Invasion of FreeBSD! Reply with quote

Spawn of Lovechild wrote:
Mr.Grim wrote:
HELP! We have to stop all those people who are moving from gentoo to FreeBSD (BLEAGH!) They all clame the portage is "Better" and BSD is "Faster and more stable". How do we convince them to stick with Gentoo?


Why??

Believe it or not some people actually prefer FreeBSD over Gentoo - I'm one btw. Each system has it's advantages. Just stop being one of those moaners "BSD is dying" slashdot looser types.


I think one of the problems is that most people who say "FreeBSD is better" seem to have all the credibility of a "*BSD is dying" troll. For instance, let's look at your response. Your counter-argument?? "Each system has it's advantages." So, for you, what are the advantages? Instead of slinging insults, how about coming up with some credible counter-arguments?
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Spawn of Lovechild
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linux:
Better hardware support
Better business backing
Faster development (Features going in a lot faster - innovation happens often)
Good progress on the desktop (faster development, faster deployment, happy home users)
Kernel 2.6 scales like possesed (I mean this, AMAZING work on the kernel hackers side)

FreeBSD:
Single distribution (nice for businesses - no more which Linux are we running this week)
Ports (+10000 packages - one install system, only Debian comes close to this in the Linux world)
Slow development (STABLE means stable, something many Linux distributions are mimicing now, valued with enterprise)
Up to date documentation (Man pages, guides and how tos are kept up to date - try reading a man page on a Linux system and on a FreeBSD system)
Good reputation as a server
FreeBSD 5 scales nicely (not as well as Linux 2.6 though)
Best ATA driver on the planet

Now personally it seems to me that features only make it into FreeBSD when they are proven - like the new scheduler which is based on O(1), they made a test suite, did benchmarks - and then based on those results they alter the code. In Linux there was basically some hacking around untill a suitable solution was found. Both approaches work in general but the FreeBSD way seems more scientific to me.
To me FreeBSD seems to go for the technically advanced solution, not afraid of going against the stream, like KSE the new threading library, everyone is going for 1:1, FBSD goes for M:N it's harder to get right but in theory the superior solution. Weither or not this is a good thing only time will tell (it's my understanding that there's a 1:1 implementation of KSE as well)

That being said I like both systems, they are both UNIX derivatives - There's room for both in this world - to each his or her own. I don't see Linux and FreeBSD as competive OSes, rather as complimentary systems from which to learn and borrow (Just look at Gentoo's Portage, basically an altered Ports on a Linux system). There's a lot of cooperation going on between the different systems. And userspace isn't two worlds apart, GNOME is still GNOME on FreeBSD - which is a nice thing, since most people don't care what's under the hood.

As for the *BSD is dying arguments, it's my impression hanging out on various mailinglists, newsgroups, foras and user groups that FreeBSD never had more users than it does now, I think these types of comments mostly comes from the fact that Linux's grow rate is MUCH higher than *BSDs.

Personally I don't care what you use, as long as you like it, it's generally none of my business - I've spend extensive amounts of time on both platforms, and frankly I don't care what I use as long as it works and it's UNIX like, currently I prefer the underdog.

Anyways all this talk about FreeBSD has me wanting to reinstall FreeBSD5, maybe it's time to try the Depenguinator.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a FreeBSD user as far as I can tell Gentoo's forums look cooler that ours? that's about it :D

otherwise, FreeBSD isn't dieing...in fact I think of it's development as more stable and efficient in contrast to Linux. This is because BSD is developed in a centralized nature, meaning a core team reviews all code submissions and develops the kernel along with all periphial tools that comprise the operating system, so there's one place to go for all things BSD. Contrarily, Linux is just a kernel developed by Linus, who would be overloaded if he reviewed every single code submission. Since it is only a kernel you have to go to your respective Linux distro for the rest of the OS making Linux in general less uniform and efficient, in my mind. On another note, Gentoo is by far my favorite Linux distro along w/ Slackware
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i almost changed my laptop from gentoo to freebsd last night {1} but a problem with the installer stoped and hung, this gave me the incentive to figure out my prob luckly but a bit strange as last time it went on fine

{1} for some reason my router changed the dhcp ip address of my desktop even though it is bound to the mac address, i thought somehting very odd wass going on in gentoo and i dont think the laptop cooling fan can take another stage 1 install
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shm
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried out freebsd for the first time about a week ago. I have to say that I'm quite impressed with it. However, there really isn't any reason why I should switch from Gentoo GNU/Linux however.
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SalsaDoom
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like FreeBSD, and if it wasn't for Gentoo Linux, I'd probably be using it. But, the 2.6 kernel is just to goddam fast to leave. Since my computer is my workstation, I really felt the optimizations for that sort of work that got into the 2.6 kernel, that FreeBSD just doesn't have. Combined with better hardware support*, easily wins out Gentoo for me. I like portage better too, ports feels more primative... although I am insanely jealous of reverse dependencies.. those were so nice. Gentoo really needs those.

Anyway, both are good. I just feel that Gentoo tips out slightly in terms of performance.

* Except the FreeBSD nVidia drive produces far superior sound quality then both the OSS and the ALSA drivers linux has. Which is a real mess.

--SD


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

freebsd didn't seem to like my hardware and its kernel died on me

not tried it in a while
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2004 11:38 pm    Post subject: subject Reply with quote

message

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want to make gentoo people stick with gentoo, buy them a laptop. Otherwise they're gonna go. I a lot of ways BSD is better than gentoo. I personally prefer portage to ports, but that's just perference. BSD is faster. The kernel is more straightforeward, though i prefer manucnfig to just editing the config file. Otherwise they're very similar.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mezz wrote:
Uh, why can't you just let people choice what OS they want to use? :roll:

Yes, of course, FreeBSD is better.... :P :wink:

I beg to differ :twisted:
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it were easier to get up to date packages in FreeBSD Current (they're not *that* old, but not as up to date as most Linux distros), I'd probably be using it instead of Gentoo. It has some nice side effects like having my ATA RAID detected properly on install - the drivers for it in Linux do not work at all. :(

I don't know if one exists, if it does I couldn't find it, but I'd also like to see a nice frontend for ports or FBSD packages (like synaptic for Debian). Also, better integration between packages and ports would be helpful.

The one thing that annoyed me about FBSD was that the Gnome system (from packages) did not automatically add new applications to the menus like Gnome does automatically for me in most every Linux distro. I know its a trivial issue, but it is still annoying.

The big thing that made me decide to drop FreeBSD in favour of Gentoo was the fact that MythTV, winex and Freevo all don't work on it. :(
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 12:31 am    Post subject: Re: Invasion of FreeBSD! Reply with quote

Mr.Grim wrote:
HELP! We have to stop all those people who are moving from gentoo to FreeBSD (BLEAGH!) They all clame the portage is "Better" and BSD is "Faster and more stable". How do we convince them to stick with Gentoo?


You've already voiced your opinion at bsdforums. Give it a rest already! Instead of complaining about something that you couldn't figure out, research it and learn something.
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