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pietinger
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 Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| lefsha wrote: | | And now they have systemd hell. |
Maybe you are interested in Devuan 4.0 (you can choose between 3 init-systems ... one of it is: OpenRC  ) |
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Zucca
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| Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| pietinger wrote: | | lefsha wrote: | | And now they have systemd hell. |
Maybe you are interested in Devuan 4.0 (you can choose between 3 init-systems ... one of it is: OpenRC ;-) ) |
I think Artix gives also three init systems to choose from. ;)
| lefsha wrote: | Any Debian based Distro has a dependency hell. It's way too easy to break Synaptic
just by uninstalling or installing something. I can break Debian within the hour.
Trying to recover it within Debian paradigm is if possible will take more time, than new installation. |
I have exactly the same experience. I've given up on deb -based distros long ago. Rpm -based are okay.
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figueroa
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| Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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Lefsha, I understand. The problems that you describe are baked into the Debian apt pie. The systems are usable if used with that understanding and within those limitations. I share your feelings about systemd, but will not do what is said in English, "cut my nose off to spite my face." As a result, I don't shun a distribution because systemd exists in it. (I would if it was practical.)
It's also why I support MX-Linux in the enterprise. Based on Debian stable, it does not by default use systemd. Systemd exists for compatibility purposes (with the base and certain application programs) and MX uses what they call the systemd-shim in order to boot and run by-default in sysvinit. In some ways it's like we also say in English, "They have their cake and eat it too." That means, all the goodness of not systemd, while enjoying systemd compatibility.
On Gentoo, by far my primary distribution, I run with USE= -systemd -pulseaudio -gnome -kde
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hp pavilion hpe h8-1260t/2AB5; spinning rust x3
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lefsha
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| Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| pietinger wrote: | | lefsha wrote: | | And now they have systemd hell. |
Maybe you are interested in Devuan 4.0 (you can choose between 3 init-systems ... one of it is: OpenRC ) |
Nein. Danke. 
I haven't tested Devuan, but I would not expect any difference besides systemd absence.
Gentoo is still better, than all of them together. Despite I am not quite happy about Gentoo. It was better 20y back.
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lefsha
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| Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Zucca wrote: | | I think Artix gives also three init systems to choose from. |
That was exactly my transition distro when I left Arch due to systemd.
And I gave up on Arch due to the update of certain systemd version, where my services didn't start after reboot.
In Gentoo at least I can forbid to system/portage to mix the things up in /etc dir.
I do really hate when the system is touching things it should not be allowed to do.
Recently (6 months or so ago) exactly the same has happened to Gentoo!
During the uninstall of some package Gentoo has removed certain user, which supposed to be running
that service. But Gentoo can have ZERO clue what else that particular user may be used for by admin...
Seeing suddenly a user has disappeared and therefore some services can not be started is the most terrible
design decision. One need to be headless really touch anything inside /etc.
Since then I do have all user packages installed intentionally. They are all inside world file.
I simply cannot rely that Gentoo developers are sane. No one is sane in that world.
One always need to take care of things personally. One cannot rely on anything.
So I am happy now to stop portage from doing bad things. And of course ZFS helps me a lot in that.
Kernel developers are also insane making troubles to the best file system ever.
It is very common among all people to prevent others from being different. What ever different means.
Although the variety is what makes our world rich.
| Zucca wrote: | | I have exactly the same experience. I've given up on deb -based distros long ago. Rpm -based are okay. |
I do have the same experience. RPM -based are more sane.
Unfortunately Fedora and the kind are all based on SELinux and I am not willing spend % of CPU performance for useless things.
Many people have troubles with that. They switch it off and keep as a useless luggage.
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pjp
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| lefsha wrote: | | Frankly, no one can explain me existence of *-dev packages in Debian. |
Is this a question as to what their purpose is, or that you don't think they should be separate packages?
If you don't understand their purpose, a simple explanation would be that they are used by developers not users. A user can run a program without the -dev package, but a developer needs the -dev package to create or modify a program. The user who does not need those packages is not required to install them and is able to reduce time on downloads and updates. During updates, having the smallest possible change makes the work easier.
For a more detailed answer, a search for linux "-dev" packages seems to have results related to Ubuntu (seems to apply to Debian).
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lefsha
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | lefsha wrote: | | Frankly, no one can explain me existence of *-dev packages in Debian. |
Is this a question as to what their purpose is, or that you don't think they should be separate packages? |
1. If you would read what I have written above you won't ask that question.
2. Don't try to be smarter than others. There are so called rhetoric questions around too.
3. If I mean - "no one", that means you are automatically included. (me too)
P.S. What would you think yourself, does the person who uses linux ~25 years knows anything about the purpose of *-dev packages?
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CooSee
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:24 am Post subject: |
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no offence to anyone, but there's a german saying:
| Quote: | | Reisende soll man nicht aufhalten |
which means:
| Quote: | | Travellers should not be stopped |
because of gentoo i can't use anything else, except macos (mojave - hackintosh)  
and i love every day with gentoo, even if there's a problem - fresh reinstall is fun for me with emerge va --usepkg=y
sometimes i try other distros just for fun, but then i'am disappointed because most of them use systemd, which is awful imho or there's to much stuff installed as a default,
like e.g. bluetooth, wlan, cups, avahi and all packages for intel, nvidia graphics, even though i have only amd and no printer and no bluetooth and no wlan etc. - makes no sense.
just my two cents.
so, goodbye and good luck 
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Hund
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | Vulgar wrote: | | Goverp wrote: | | AFAIK binary distros most like Gentoo are Calculate Linux and Arch. |
Not exactly correct. Alpine Linux is the closest as it was build from Gentoo. Still uses OpenRC no systemd. The only binary Linux I use if I do not simply build my own with Gentoo. There are enough desktop packages available depending upon needs it is a perfect desktop for a minimalist binary release. Not bloated fast. Plus it is a simple matter of setting up like you can with Gentoo have your own mirror so that only one external update need be done if you have a number of installs in your network.
I use Alpine for light stuff, since there is minimal up keep. Use Gentoo for heavy lifting. Works real good because most is exactly the same as Gentoo no flip flopping from OpenRC to Systemd. In fact, much of it is like the early Gentoo, before all the bloat. |
Alpine was not built from Gentoo, it is its own distribution that was spawned when there was a difference in what a lightweight secure distribution should contain as a subproject of debian. They use OpenRC as it is light and also works with musl. However, there is plans to move away from OpenRC due to issues in how it is developed and maintained.
its a fantastic distribution and I have a large number of containers running it. I plan to convert my headless to it as well, I am just waiting to see what their replacement init and service manager does |
Alpine Linux is a fork from the LEAF project, which is as a fork of the Linux Router Project. :)
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pjp
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:57 am Post subject: |
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I either read it and it wasn't clear to me, or I didn't see whatever it was you think I didn't read. I'll do my best to avoid the mistake of asking you questions I should not be asking.
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lefsha
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | I either read it and it wasn't clear to me, or I didn't see whatever it was you think I didn't read. I'll do my best to avoid the mistake of asking you questions I should not be asking. |
I cite myself in this thread:
"I don't have to stumble upon *-dev packages like at Debian. Having them is a nonsense.
First they create a bloatware and then save disk space on header files. Is not quite sane."
The space occupied by header files is negligible comparing to the bloatware Debian is offering to install.
I can observe something between 50 and 400 Mb for a complete installation.
Corresponding size of /usr dir only is between 4 and 16Gb. That is about 2-3% only.
Gentoo is much more sane on that. By choosing what to install and what not I can save 2-10 Gb easily.
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figueroa
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:54 am Post subject: |
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lefsha -- Everything is relative.
A stage4 zstd compressed system backup of a fully flushed out Debian-based business-office computer is less than 3 GB.
The same (similar) stage4 of my Gentoo main desktop computer similarly flushed out is 3.4 GB, and the main difference is due to several kernel sources and build files.
I'm a Gentoo user, so you know my preferences. But, maintaining Debian-stable-based remote computers for others is a breeze. (I don't let users do anything at the system level. That saves me the trouble of having to fixing their systems.) I'm 2/3 of the way migrating the school's desktop computers from Mint (Ubuntu-based) to MX-Linux (Debian-stable-based), the later being much easier to maintain.
I don't believe you've made a very strong case for your extraordinarily negative opinions about the Debian ecosystem. I share your distaste for systemd, but it does work. Fortunately, MX-Linux, though Debian-based, defaults to sysv-init while giving users the choice of optionally booting into systemd if they want to do so. (Not MY users, but those users who are installing and maintaining their own systems.)
In fact, many Gentoo users choose systemd for their computers. It kind of creeps me out, but choice is good.
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hp pavilion hpe h8-1260t/2AB5; spinning rust x3
i7-2600 @ 3.40GHz; 16 gb; Radeon HD 7570
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spica
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| Gentoo is like LEGO for adults, sometimes we return to play games again and again... |
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Rion
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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I tried to switch to binary distros a few times but ended up with Gentoo anyway.
Well wrt LEGO probably it's easier to switch to something in between like Arch Linux, Calculate Linux, Chrome OS etc
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figueroa
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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Gentoo is like the "Roach Motel." "You can check in, but you can't check out." * artistic license
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z4c2gadmytg
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Andy Figueroa
hp pavilion hpe h8-1260t/2AB5; spinning rust x3
i7-2600 @ 3.40GHz; 16 gb; Radeon HD 7570
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lefsha
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| figueroa wrote: | lefsha -- Everything is relative.
A stage4 zstd compressed system backup of a fully flushed out Debian-based business-office computer is less than 3 GB. |
True, but I gave you exactly relative numbers. Who cares of the size of your installation? I can easily bring it up to 20Gb or more.
Different people do have different interests. If you consider zstd compressed images, then I can say it is 10Mb at one of my machines.
Tell me how much space you save on the level of 3Gb?
I repeat the question. What is the point to have *-dev packages separated? The headache of being not able to compile anything
is much more. Also compiling at Debian is a headache on its own. In Gentoo doing compiling of anything is much more natural.
| figueroa wrote: | | The same (similar) stage4 of my Gentoo main desktop computer similarly flushed out is 3.4 GB, and the main difference is due to several kernel sources and build files. |
That is not the point. It is YOUR Gentoo, not mine. You can always enable almost all USE flags for everything and end up with larger size of the distro,
than what ever else. Simply try to compile kernel with all options enabled. It will be much larger, than the one from Debian.
Would it prove, that Debian is more compact? - Of course not.
Long ago my own kernel build was below 2Mb of size (compressed image), currently it is about 3Mb and I don't like it - too large.
The standard size is about 10Mb.
Gentoo allows me to make smaller distro with the same functionality comparing to Debian.
Of course, Gentoo also allows me to make it larger. If Debian maintainers do think particular kernel functionality not necessary,
it has no impact on my work, because I can enable everything I want. And Gentoo source based kernel is supported by portage package manager!
I don't have to go out of tree and control dependencies fully by myself.
What I don't like is there is no separate system to register side installation outside of portage. (I implemented that part by my own)
Despite of flexibility of Gentoo I have to compile something manual. And I wish Gentoo will take care of those installed
packages. Unfortunately Gentoo even don't control everything what it installs within the portage.
There are plenty of files in the system not recorded as being part of installed package. That is terrible.
If we don't talk about user's data the system must be responsible for each and every file located in the system.
It could be made at best with a TRIE data structure and each file can be followed back to it's origin.
That is how it should work.
Also the design of the "CONTENTS" file is pretty bad to my taste.
It has to be separated into 3 files - DIR, OBJ, SYM. Not a mixture of them inside 1 file.
There is absolutely no space saving if putting them into a single file, but it makes data processing much slower.
One should only make things slower if there is a significant gain in the disk saving if at all.
Doing things slower, where portage is slow enough is not smart.
To me portage need to be redesigned making it at least 10x faster and much more sane.
Things like checking available space before compilation should be removed or made optional.
Everything what is not rock solid must be optional (possible to disable). This level of "improvements"
may destroy any brilliant system.
Portage must be module based and user or helper programs should be able to enter infrastructure
at any level: dependencies solving, download, compiling, installation, remove etc.
| figueroa wrote: | | I'm a Gentoo user, so you know my preferences. But, maintaining Debian-stable-based remote computers for others is a breeze. (I don't let users do anything at the system level. That saves me the trouble of having to fixing their systems.) I'm 2/3 of the way migrating the school's desktop computers from Mint (Ubuntu-based) to MX-Linux (Debian-stable-based), the later being much easier to maintain. |
The less you know, the easier to maintain it. The easiest is Windows. Every one can maintain it...
Every one can drive a street car, but only few can drive a Formula1 bolid. Which one is faster is not even a question.
I could hardly imagine an average user can distinguish Ubuntu from Debian.
| figueroa wrote: | | I don't believe you've made a very strong case for your extraordinarily negative opinions about the Debian ecosystem. |
Frankly it is not about Debian, but most of binary distros in general. If you offer binary packages you have to care the responsibility
about what to include and what not. The general tendency among all binary distros is to include most. That is fine solution for average desktop,
where performance doesn't matter, but that is not OK for servers or mission critical machines. Unfortunately server based branches is not available anymore.
They all include X and all related crap. Every distro, not only Debian or Debian-based.
Despite I don't like that limited choice, that is some one's opinion to do so. Which is at the end - fine. But kind of saving disk space with header files
sounds like insane even more then.
| figueroa wrote: | I share your distaste for systemd, but it does work. Fortunately, MX-Linux, though Debian-based, defaults to sysv-init while giving users the choice of optionally booting into systemd if they want to do so. (Not MY users, but those users who are installing and maintaining their own systems.)
In fact, many Gentoo users choose systemd for their computers. It kind of creeps me out, but choice is good. |
Frankly, I was neutral to systemd at the beginning. As long as some instrument works I don't really care about it's design.
Therefore it's OK if people install it. It is understandable. That is the same like why some people prefer communism vs capitalism.
Theoretically speaking communism is better, than capitalism. It is the best for human-beings. The best as long we don't take human's behavior
into account.
Systemd was working OK initially, but has started taking more and more what it is willing to decide. Then to make my system complaint
I had to make systemd happy. It was not that systemd made me happy. It was me who ought to make systemd happy.
It reminded me Windows behavior. But then after I made everything for it to work it has started to disappoint me not starting some services
on the next reboot after update. Sorry, but I can't tolerate, that systemd update will prevent services from starting, which aren't related to systemd.
Also systemd has created it's own dependency hell. The most trivial of them is journal and tmpfs. I guess every one has faced it,
suddenly /tmp space became very limited. It wasn't me who did it. I have never asked anyone to do so. And that is the biggest problem.
Systemd is not an instrument to achieve something, but a manager who decide by itself what and how to make it.
Almost all Android devices are managed by 3rd parties and not by the owner. It is Android who is having you, not vice versa.
The design how to start a service and how a unit file looks like it secondary and not important at all.
People instead are fighting on the level which way it is better or worse - faster to start what service.
Systemd is the first step to make Linux controlling you, therefore it should be forbidden.
Why Gentoo is allowing to use it is very suspicious. One can't explain everything by freedom of choice!
That way one can end up killing other people. That is also kind of freedom of choice.
Newbies and not experienced people may fall into a trap, because they don't know what is good and what is bad.
They even can't distinguish one from another.
Alone the decision of Debian to adopt systemd says everything about them. It is anything but not freedom.
Existence of Devuan is the best evidence that some people have understood what has happened.
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Lefsha
Last edited by lefsha on Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:16 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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lefsha
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| spica wrote: | | Gentoo is like LEGO for adults, sometimes we return to play games again and again... |
Besides breathing, drinking, sleeping and eating (in this exact order) - everything else is a game.
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spica
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| lefsha wrote: | | Besides breathing, drinking, sleeping and eating (in this exact order) - everything else is a game. |
Everything is a game... except bees  but sometimes bees are also a game |
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figueroa
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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@lefsha -- I rest my case. I think you'll get a lot of input to that rant.
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hp pavilion hpe h8-1260t/2AB5; spinning rust x3
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kj184050
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:46 am Post subject: |
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Dear Processus42,
I understand your concerns, and the decision you made...
I am pretty sure, you will come back
I've been in a similar position 3 or 4 times.
I am a huge fan of Debian/Devuan and Arch (never tried Slackware:(). + a huge opponent of rpm based systems. Fortunately I have this opportunity to work with many distros at once every day. Workstations, HPC, desktops...
Only Gentoo gives me this (almost) 100% feeling of GNU/Linux freedom (these dependencies...).
But still, I understand your point of view...
Gentoo is not for everyone... Moreover, in my opinion, Gentoo is only for crazy people who have additional time to nanny their system.
Most of the powerful users don't have time to do this. Sysadmins, scientists, etc... Look at Debian... You install it, configure, it, install all the software you need. And you are fine. With Gentoo you have to follow a certain policy If not, you're going to go down (my case is a good example: https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1144020.html)
Every time I gave up with Gentoo, it was due to the lack of time... and there was a deadline... If you don't have time to fix your system, you have to quickly switch to another one. It is easy with Debian, or Arch-like Manjaro...
But I always came back to Gentoo...
Kind regards |
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