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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moved from Dustbin to Gentoo Chat.

I fat fingered a split and ban. Sorry about this topic being in the bin for a few minuets.
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HungGarTiger
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fat Finger Necromancy :twisted:
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pjp
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Often used after Power Word Kill.
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Spanik
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just saw it after it's resurrection. I must say I agree with the OP. I feel even weekly updates might not be enough to keep up. A single minor fart in Python, Perl, glibc, qt or any of the others and the house of cards crashes.

I just gave up. I install it, put everything on it that I need and then then just continue to use it until I need something extra or a hardware piece fails. Then I just start over again. The chance that something you regulary use (or are using) breaks so you end up blocked is just too large to take the risk of updating.
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Jaglover
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spanik wrote:
Just saw it after it's resurrection. I must say I agree with the OP. I feel even weekly updates might not be enough to keep up. A single minor fart in Python, Perl, glibc, qt or any of the others and the house of cards crashes.

House of cards? Your Gentoo is a house of cards? I'm glad my Gentoo is not like that, all my installations are strong as rock. Nowadays I practically never use my laptop, I boot it once in 1-2 months for updating, running ~amd64, no problems with updates.
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Spanik
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaglover wrote:
Spanik wrote:
Just saw it after it's resurrection. I must say I agree with the OP. I feel even weekly updates might not be enough to keep up. A single minor fart in Python, Perl, glibc, qt or any of the others and the house of cards crashes.

House of cards? Your Gentoo is a house of cards? I'm glad my Gentoo is not like that, all my installations are strong as rock. Nowadays I practically never use my laptop, I boot it once in 1-2 months for updating, running ~amd64, no problems with updates.


It is stable once up and running, I give you that. But after any changes, however minor in Python, Perl, glibc, qt or other lib, portage and the updates grind to a halt with loads of slot conflict, circular dependencies and blockers. It normally takes me longer to deal with that then to reinstall. Alltough the last install took me also over a week to get -with the hulp of the forum- to a working system. The desktop is now up for a new install. The shit portage trows up is larger than the buffer of the terminal.
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pietinger
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spanik wrote:
[...] with loads of slot conflict, circular dependencies and blockers. It normally takes me longer to deal with that then to reinstall. [...]


This is not true if you have a brave stable gentoo installation ... because our developers tested it. You can run into problems if you try your own special configuration. If you dont like the stable GCC it is fine when you try the intel compiler but dont expect our developers to test all unusual configurations. If you update a "rock-solid" stable gentoo once a month you cannot run into any (big) problems. And a small problem is solved in this forums within one or two days ...

I can remember you when you critiziced the AMD64-handbook ... yes, it is not perfect ... but you dont have so much freedom of choice for your own linux in any other distribution than gentoo.
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skellr
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm trying not to too be snarky, but, can you leave any rolling release distro for 4-6 months and have no issues with updates?

Not saying anything "LTS" is the way to go, they just guess for you and make their own problems in different ways.
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HungGarTiger
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pietinger wrote:
the AMD64-handbook ... yes, it is not perfect ...


Thems fightin' words, Sir.
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figueroa
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spanik wrote:
Jaglover wrote:
Spanik wrote:
Just saw it after it's resurrection. I must say I agree with the OP. I feel even weekly updates might not be enough to keep up. A single minor fart in Python, Perl, glibc, qt or any of the others and the house of cards crashes.

House of cards? Your Gentoo is a house of cards? I'm glad my Gentoo is not like that, all my installations are strong as rock. Nowadays I practically never use my laptop, I boot it once in 1-2 months for updating, running ~amd64, no problems with updates.


It is stable once up and running, I give you that. But after any changes, however minor in Python, Perl, glibc, qt or other lib, portage and the updates grind to a halt with loads of slot conflict, circular dependencies and blockers. It normally takes me longer to deal with that then to reinstall. Alltough the last install took me also over a week to get -with the hulp of the forum- to a working system. The desktop is now up for a new install. The shit portage trows up is larger than the buffer of the terminal.

Reluctantly quoting the entire thread for context. @Spanik, this just isn't true, and your rant is poisoning the well for newer users. I've been maintaining what was originally an x86 desktop, now server, since 2004, often with monthly or less frequent updates, with limited but always solvable problems.

Likewise, my x86 low-power laptop I've been maintaining even less frequently, recently more or less monthly, but zero problems, since 2009.

My current desktop, 64 bit, was a stage3 install about three years ago with configuration files and world copied from the 2004 x86 system. I have a handful of other systems that I maintain, local and remote.

Perl changes have never been a problem. Moving through different Python defaults have been difficult in the past, but follow instructions and be reasonably persistent, and in the end no big deal. The recent change of default to Python 3.9 was miraculously easy.

I don't have weird custom configurations; I stay Gentoo standard and stable. I can count my ~ package on one hand. I've never had to do a new install to "fix" a broken one.

Here is the mantra: Gentoo is a build-your-own-from-source-distribution tool kit. Changes follow the upstream sources, made more sane by our developers and maintainers. Follow the instructions, and keep up. Users who do their own thing rather than keeping to some standard, supported layout/profile or don't update for long periods of time shouldn't blame portage for their problems. Portage and the overall quality of Gentoo packages have become amazing since I started this journey.

Major changes that might cause users problems are announced in the news. Read the news and abide by the guidance. Read the forums and help others when you can. Automate and test your backups. What's not to like?

Added: I maintain/update two local systems daily, because I can and takes about five minutes each with my morning coffee. Updating daily makes the larger updates much easier. Some days there are none, one or two, or sometimes 50 usually related packages. I don't watch the terminal window compile packages, but I do check for error log messages afterwards. What I learn maintaining these two daily, I am able to apply to those PCs that get updates less often. There are some long threads in the forms about a recent, major Python change (not 3.9) that helped many users (me included) get over that hump. Not everybody had trouble. Some people followed instructions better than I did. But in the forums I got the help I needed. I always get the help I need, and sometimes I do need help because, in the end, I'm just an overexposed and somewhat experienced ordinary user.
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ian.au
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo's not for everyone, and never was. If you have no interest in learning how to design and administer a customised system, the power and flexibility it offers is inaccessible and consequently irrelevant, I guess.
It's not that hard to keep a stable system, even with a considered mix of ~, cooking along for years with minimal administrative intervention in my experience.
It takes a bit of commitment to reading the manuals / handbook, but when you need to configure a system for any purpose, Gentoo still makes it all easily available and accessible, and if the curve gets too steep, the resources here can always provide a push in the right direction if not an outright solution.
I'm amazed at the number of people who are convinced they need Gentoo, but not enough to learn the basics of administering their system.
It isn't that hard.
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Spanik
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry if my experience is different from yours. But I can only speak of personal experience. I don't think my system is "unusual" in the sense of hardware or software. Supermicro Epyc board and a rather old Nvidia (works well with nouveau) . Only less common things are an Areca raid controller and an RME audio card. But both very well supported in the kernel and never a cause of problems. Using the bog standard Gentoo release as in the handbook, desktop just as plain Plasma with the profiles that match. Don't have a single masked or unmasked package. About 10 use files, mostly fileformat related (ogg, vorbis, text, flac, mp3). Only thing that is different from the handbook is keyboard layout.

So I guess that we have to agree to disagree.

I do agree however that the handbook and the forum are the greatest part of Gentoo. If it wasn't for those I would never had been able to get a Linux box running all those years ago.
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tld
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

figueroa wrote:
Reluctantly quoting the entire thread for context. @Spanik, this just isn't true, and your rant is poisoning the well for newer users. I've been maintaining what was originally an x86 desktop, now server, since 2004, often with monthly or less frequent updates, with limited but always solvable problems.
I have to agree 100%, and yes...new users need to ignore this. I usually update my main workstation (a new AMD based machine) first and then sync my two MythTV systems from it. I tend to update roughly once a month (which is very infrequent for sure), which can occasionally cause some anomalies, but as you say, generally easily solvable.

Those MythTV systems are old x86 machines I've been using since 2007 (and they're actually a good bit older than that). Yesterday is a good example. I updated the MythTV systems after about a month, which included the perl upgrade to 5.32.1, and the switch to python 3.9. That's a lot. I ran into one update that failed because it required a perl module that hadn't yet recompiled after the perl update, but re-emerging that module got everything going again.

I think that for those who have a lot of issues, the most common culprit (especially with blocks etc) is unnecessary stuff in your world file (for example recompiling some dependency without --oneshot), and to a lesser extent, failing to do a --depclean after updates.

Tom
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ian.au
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spanik wrote:
I'm sorry if my experience is different from yours. But I can only speak of personal experience.

No need to apologise to me, but you should try and find out what you're doing wrong with your installations.
I just read through a few of your recent posts; constant reinstallations (last on a 3mth old install for a basic python update?); running root everywhere because of poorly configured jack implementation etc..

If that was a typical Gentoo experience, nobody would use it.

Your problems with Gentoo are firmly rooted between the screen and the chair, whether you choose to recognise it or not.
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dmpogo
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spanik wrote:
Jaglover wrote:
Spanik wrote:
Just saw it after it's resurrection. I must say I agree with the OP. I feel even weekly updates might not be enough to keep up. A single minor fart in Python, Perl, glibc, qt or any of the others and the house of cards crashes.

House of cards? Your Gentoo is a house of cards? I'm glad my Gentoo is not like that, all my installations are strong as rock. Nowadays I practically never use my laptop, I boot it once in 1-2 months for updating, running ~amd64, no problems with updates.


It is stable once up and running, I give you that. But after any changes, however minor in Python, Perl, glibc, qt or other lib, portage and the updates grind to a halt with loads of slot conflict, circular dependencies and blockers. It normally takes me longer to deal with that then to reinstall. Alltough the last install took me also over a week to get -with the hulp of the forum- to a working system. The desktop is now up for a new install. The shit portage trows up is larger than the buffer of the terminal.



Twemty years without ever reinstalling Gentoo - only one install per machine when a machine is bought new. Home installation - runs from 2007, soon 14 years, office desktop from 2011 - reaches 10 in two months. What are you doing with your Gentoo ??
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