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Moonboots
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:05 am    Post subject: Flatpak on Gentoo Reply with quote

Appears Flatpak has arrived on portage this morning.
Looking forward to giving it a try after I next sync :)

Looking good Libreoffice 7 installed 8)
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msst
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have fun with it and make an assessment of the disadvantages as well as the advantages. Flatpack means the application comes with all its dependencies and libraries pre-packaged.

This will be easier for the developer to guarantee compatibilities and for the distribution it is also easier for the same reason. The user in gentoo will not have to worry about dependencies as well and might receive a more stable product.

For the gentoo user I see nevertheless mainly disadvantages. It means 10 flatpack applications run with 10 different environments. There is nothing customizable, so one of the major advantages of gentoo is nullified and this is simply not the gentoo way - you might just use a normal disto then. I personally also think (just my opinion) that bundled dependencies make for lazy developers whose software will have more bugs. That is just how I see it so I will not use flatpack / snap even on non-gentoo distros. It is the first package I remove from the installation if it is there. 8-;
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Moonboots
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For myself I can only envisage a few packages that I might want to use the Flatpak version.
libreoffice is a clear candidate as bring ~amd64 I’m kinda forced to built libreoffice, now I can avoid this. The Arduino IDE would be another by not having to built the toolchain with crossdev.
Gentoo’s libreoffice-bin is currently at version 6.4.6.2 and by having version 7 on Flatpak might provide a breathing space for our developers.
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Zucca
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting. This might be a good way to test out software before I write an ebuild for it.
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fpemud
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think flatpak is another choice, which is good for Gentoo.
User can choose to install a software as flatpak package (perhaps on a system which needs more security) or emerge it by gentoo ebuild (perhaps on a system which has a small harddisk/memory).

But more and more software will change to release flatpak package only.
We can hardly change this trend.
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Hund
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

msst wrote:
[...] this is simply not the gentoo way [...]

Well..
Quote:
The goal of Gentoo is to design tools and systems that allow a user to do that work as pleasantly and efficiently as possible, as they see fit. Our tools should be a joy to use, and should help the user to appreciate the richness of the Linux and free software community, and the flexibility of free software. This is only possible when the tool is designed to reflect and transmit the will of the user, and leave the possibilities open as to the final form of the raw materials (the source code.) If the tool forces the user to do things a particular way, then the tool is working against, rather than for, the user. We have all experienced situations where tools seem to be imposing their respective wills on us. This is backwards, and contrary to the Gentoo philosophy.

Source: The philosophy of Gentoo

You should really read about the Gentoo philosophy again. I think you missed pretty much the whole part with what Gentoo is the first time.

With that said, one can have opinions about Flatpak indeed. I'm not a fan of it at all and I'm not the only one who dislikes it. Just check out the website Flatpak - a security nightmare. Anyway, what a Gentoo user (or any user) chooses to do with his/her own system is completely up to them and it's not our business to tell them what they are allowed to use. :)
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Moonboots
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course it pays to be aware of the security aspects of installing any software.
Going through a centralized site like Flathub and installing apps from likes of Mozilla etc will minimise (hopefully) security risks.
Fedora support flatpak on RHEL. Can’t see them taking the risk of damaging publicity if the technology was inherently unsafe ?
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Hu
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are different types of danger though. I think you are referring to the danger of downloading a package from a malicious source. While that is a concern, a bigger concern to me with the various bundling technologies (Flatpak, Docker, etc.) is that, by design, the bundle is completely self-contained. If one of the components in the bundle is found to have a security defect, you need to find and update every bundle that contains a copy of the defective component. Historically, most developers who resort to bundling third-party components cannot be bothered to monitor third-party defect reports, then rebuild and reissue their bundles when appropriate. At best, they might update their bundled libraries the next time the main application is due for a release. However, some projects have gained infamy for not doing even that, sometimes because they had so heavily patched their bundled form that they could not merge an update from upstream. With the traditional distribution model, the Linux distribution pushes out a fixed version of the library, users restart the relevant programs, and the fix is then active for the entire system.
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Zucca
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hu wrote:
If one of the components in the bundle is found to have a security defect, you need to find and update every bundle that contains a copy of the defective component.
I was going to write about the same. But all the above Hu said is the main reason for me not to use such software ditribution methods commonly.

Which brings a question: Has Gentoo developed any securitu measures for flatpack? For example users being able to run a flatpacked program in some kind of isolation from the rest of the system? As a unpriviliged user?
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asturm
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No. You pick your own poison.
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figueroa
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:01 am    Post subject: Re: Flatpak on Gentoo Reply with quote

Moonboots wrote:
Appears Flatpak has arrived on portage this morning.
Looking forward to giving it a try after I next sync :)

Looking good Libreoffice 7 installed 8)

LibreOffice 7 is available from their website as an AppImage. I've put it on a USB flash drive to test for others and it seems to work fine, but I don't actually use it. I'm quite happy with the current libreoffice-bin stable, and I'm a heavy LibreOffice user.
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