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dmpogo
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:58 pm    Post subject: Prolifiration of specialized build sysems [rant] Reply with quote

No, I am not about rust or anything

Starting from bind-tools-9.16.4, bind tools -- perhaps over 30 years old basic dns tools like nslookup, host and dig now requires python, and not just python but rather off-side sphinx subsystem (nothing else needed it on my systems to ddate). What for ? To generate manpages. Did they change that much in 30 years ?
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Ionen
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That "hopefully" won't stay, looks more like a mistake from upstream in the tarball that led to believe the man pages needed to be generated (formerly caused emerge failure due to man pages not found), see bug #730270. The workaround in the ebuild is simply to touch a few files and then you both get man pages and no sphinx dep.

I'm confused why the bug was closed given can keep man pages either way. There also was alternate approaches such as bundling man pages if it had been needed :| Given bind-tools often get installed on weak minimalist systems it'd have been nicer. On my end I just modified the ebuild and moved on but well.
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saw that this morning, but I just had bind sitting around since I had moved over to unbound, so I just depclean'd it
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I took one look at the bind-tools update and decided I'd rather just use whatever busybox provides than install a hundred deps for /usr/bin/host.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results each time, and that's what maintainers foist upon us every time they expect us to build manpages from source. A strange double standard when `grep -r Debian /usr/share/man` turns up so many results.
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Ionen
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ionen wrote:
That "hopefully" won't stay, looks more like a mistake from upstream in the tarball
Well, back to normal as expected. No more sphinx dep in bind-tools-9.16.5 unless USE=doc, and 9.16.4 (stable version) removed the dependency as well and added a tarball for man pages instead.
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figueroa
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't run my own DNS server. Do I even need bind-tools? The reason I ask is that at some point it ended up in my world file. Is it safe to "emerge -c bind-tools" and I don't see any dependency issues.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Code:
$ equery d bind-tools
 * These packages depend on bind-tools:
net-fs/samba-4.12.4 (addns ? net-dns/bind-tools[gssapi])

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Code:
$ equery d bind-tools
 * These packages depend on bind-tools:
net-fs/samba-4.12.4 (addns ? net-dns/bind-tools[gssapi])

Not me -- no samba. I use NFS.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do use samba, but I found bind-tools in /var/lib/portage/world.
Did "emerge -aC bind-tools" followed by "emerge -auvND @world --with-bdeps=y". Nothing to emerge.
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Hu
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

figueroa wrote:
I don't run my own DNS server. Do I even need bind-tools? The reason I ask is that at some point it ended up in my world file. Is it safe to "emerge -c bind-tools" and I don't see any dependency issues.
Before you unmerge it, check the list of files it provides. Some of its programs, notably dig, can be useful to people who do not administer DNS, but who need (or want) to understand the DNS configuration of other domains. I routinely turn to dig when I want to see how a hostname resolves.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hu wrote:
Before you unmerge it, check the list of files it provides. Some of its programs, notably dig, can be useful to people who do not administer DNS, but who need (or want) to understand the DNS configuration of other domains. I routinely turn to dig when I want to see how a hostname resolves.

Thanks, Hu. Maybe I should have waited, but it's gone now. If I ever need dig or some other function provided, I will just add it back. I'm trying to keep a decently lean system, but unfortunately my main desktop started with a world file lifted from the Gentoo system I originally installed about 2003. From time-to-time I identify fluff in world that I can't find any justification for, don't know what it does, or why it was added, and usually doesn't have any apparent ill effects when I remove them.
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dmpogo
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

figueroa wrote:
I don't run my own DNS server. Do I even need bind-tools? The reason I ask is that at some point it ended up in my world file. Is it safe to "emerge -c bind-tools" and I don't see any dependency issues.
\


For me nslookup or dig are tools like ping and traceroute - to check how my internet is working when something is not right.
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figueroa
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nslookup is inlcuded in busybox (usuage = busybox nslookup url)
ping is included iputils
traceroute is from the traceroute (which is handy)
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dmpogo
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

figueroa wrote:
nslookup is inlcuded in busybox (usuage = busybox nslookup url)
ping is included iputils
traceroute is from the traceroute (which is handy)


Sure, ping and traceroute are from different packages, but bind-tools complements a set for me. It is a good point that busybox version can be used instead, but so is for ping and traceroute, btw.


I had an interesting use of nslookup recently. My remote (well, in the office, but office is remote now (: ) server did not come up online after reboot. Ping on either IP number of hostname returned nothing. I thought server did not boot and I have to go (and that involves plenty of COVID related forms filling) down to university.
But I checked nslooup and found that neither my IP is resolved to my hostname, nor hostname to IP. So this can't be because of my server, since DNS servers are managed by university.
Looked in .ssh/known_hosts and noticed that historically my server had one of two IP addresses. I tried to ssh on the other one - and success !

Later found out that our faculty DNS is served by two servers - primary and secondary, and if you hit primary, dhcpd gets one IP, and if secondary - another. This day primary was down.
But why name -> IP resolution was failing ? Because the DNS record is cleared immediately on lease release - but new one takes up to 3 hours to propagate. So for 3 hours my server had no
working DNS record.
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eccerr0r
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use "/usr/bin/host" out of habit for some reason, so I installed bind-utils. Need to get off this tool someday... bad habits die hard?

Really should just use nslookup of busybox instead...

(anyway this is minor, what I really despise is glibc requiring python to build...)
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Ionen
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it's good bind-tools doesn't require sphinx anymore but guess I'm installing sphinx anyway because noticed clang+llvm-10.0.1 does :|
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like USE=doc also affects the sphinx dependency on clang/llvm.

<sarcasm>It's unfortunate, simple looking text documentation is "obsolete" we must have pdfs to tell you how to use ls(1)</sarcasm> ... *sigh*
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Ionen
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eccerr0r wrote:
Looks like USE=doc also affects the sphinx dependency on clang/llvm.
Not anymore, it requires sphinx either way for 10.0.1. But that's not in stable yet, so look forward to it.
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eccerr0r
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grr..

Same beef that some packages (What? webkit-gtk wants MORE dependencies?) wants ruby as well.
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dmpogo
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eccerr0r wrote:
Looks like USE=doc also affects the sphinx dependency on clang/llvm.

<sarcasm>It's unfortunate, simple looking text documentation is "obsolete" we must have pdfs to tell you how to use ls(1)</sarcasm> ... *sigh*



Funny thing is that nothing beats 'man' in what it does, description of commands. texinfo was a big flop. Still don't know what zillions copies of docbook ( I have five installed ) are doing ...

I guess it is a rather strict form of man format which made it so useful, providing uniformity of presentation across the board.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ionen wrote:
eccerr0r wrote:
Looks like USE=doc also affects the sphinx dependency on clang/llvm.
Not anymore, it requires sphinx either way for 10.0.1. But that's not in stable yet, so look forward to it.


I suppose one could modify the ebuild and remove
Code:
-DLLVM_ENABLE_SPHINX=ON

but you will get ZERO docs.
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dmpogo
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Ionen wrote:
eccerr0r wrote:
Looks like USE=doc also affects the sphinx dependency on clang/llvm.
Not anymore, it requires sphinx either way for 10.0.1. But that's not in stable yet, so look forward to it.


I suppose one could modify the ebuild and remove
Code:
-DLLVM_ENABLE_SPHINX=ON

but you will get ZERO docs.



And here it is, llvm-10.0.1 is stable, with sphinx outside doc USE flag. Do you know why ?
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Ionen
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmpogo wrote:
And here it is, llvm-10.0.1 is stable, with sphinx outside doc USE flag. Do you know why ?
For man pages it seems (which are "supposed" to be available regardless of USE), there was bug #733656 open about that but it was shot down pretty quick.

mgorny (who did this change to clang/llvm) was actually the one to suggest a compromise to use a tarball with prebuilt man pages when it adds extra dependencies, but guess tired of the idea with sphinx now :| So it's less choices, and more deps -- bonus when people didn't even want/use the man pages.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've modified 10.0.1 but haven't tried it yet, (I had the ebuild pull in the prebuilt 10.0.0 doc - still available at the moment), but I intend to see if one of the other distros has a doc set that can be used.

Edit to add: pretend ebuild shows no sphinx,etc being pulled in.

If I really need man pages, a quick google of whatever usually shows multiple sites with man pages.

ETA2:
dmpogo wrote:
And here it is, llvm-10.0.1 is stable, with sphinx outside doc USE flag. Do you know why ?

Yeah, but if I give an honest answer I'm sure I'll offend some dev(s) and get scolded.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I noticed this morning, with all of the extra dev-python dependencies. Rats. Progress in the fast lane. I've let them install, but it's not feeling good.
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