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soparla
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo also saved my Mac Pro for which Apple decided no longer to support security upgrade for OS X (go figure!):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Mac_Pro_Tower.jpg

Why would I throw away a good $5k PC when all I need to do is update CPU, RAM, VideoCard, HDs etc?
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Conditional_Zenith
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another one of these threads. Gentoo has been dead ever since I installed it in 2004.
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jserink
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conditional_Zenith wrote:
Another one of these threads. Gentoo has been dead ever since I installed it in 2004.

yah.
:)
I'm still here.

John
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figueroa
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been using Gentoo, and only Gentoo, as my primary desktop since 2004, as well as for my local and deployed servers; mainly business use, sysadmin platform, web development. Gentoo meets all of my needs. I don't play games.
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paintchip
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

figueroa wrote:
I've been using Gentoo, and only Gentoo, as my primary desktop since 2004, as well as for my local and deployed servers; mainly business use, sysadmin platform, web development. Gentoo meets all of my needs. I don't play games.


I do sometimes play games and Gentoo has been amazing for it, especially Paradox Interactive's more resent releases. Gentoo seems to be doing pretty well for being "nearly dead."
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

paintchip,

Gentoo has been dying or nearly dead since I moved to it in May 2002
Reports of it death are "greatly exaggerated". :)
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NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.
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sunova
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, I consider myself as a hated one on the IRC channel :roll:
I've been thinking about package shortages all along.
The problem is in the core, package manager, Portage. Writing ebuilds can be over complicated, because of all the complexities those bashrc, env, ebuild phases, eclasses, etc add to them. E.g. someone wants to write a simple hook. It might seem naive and trivial to you, but not everybody wants to create a bashrc script, add a "[[ EBUILD_PHASE=blah ]] && do some stuff" bash script to simply add a variable to /etc/env.d (do we have an eclass for this? I don't know! Am I supposed to know? It's supposed to be a "simple hook" FFS... ).
And the contribution can be impossible sometimes (this may be the reason why person in the previous example is not willing to modify the ebuild itself). All those dev/maintainer/proxy maintainer layers prevent the contribution of many people who are not highly experienced to be considered as professional yet not too dumb to be useless. You might suggest to "set up your own overlay" but it's the second reason I prefer a simple hook, as maintaining a package on your own overlay can be painful, especially when your change can't be proposed for merging to the main overlay.
For you to better perceive my point, please have a look at the development model of Guix. Everyone can contribute in some way.
More about maintaining an ebuild, why don't you write some good utilities to e.g. extract dependencies from a configure script and translate them to their Gentoo counterparts? Why don't you think about a CI/CD template for packages to make new integrations faster for overlay owners as well? A simple pipeline that searches for the latest release, downloads the artifact, tries to apply an ebuild template, update XDEPEND variables according to build system metadata, modify configure/make scripts to eliminate all >/dev/null parts to catch possible bugs faster, build and test it regardless of RESTRICT=test?

Some missing features are trivial. I don't know how portage traverses the dependency tree, but hey can't you at least do it in some more dynamic way? When I issue emerge -NuDp @world, and check everything and want to emerge -NuD @world, the graph and paths are the same. Can't you cache some pathways and reuse them later? You just waste time and CPU cycles of the users.

Finally, attitudes towards feedback/suggestions are interesting to me. Most of the times IRC people jump in front of you and say: "You are not supposed to do it in this way". You claim that it's a meta distribution. How come you decide how people should/shouldn't do it? Yet I'm only making a suggestion, I'm not pointing a gun towards your head, nor I'm saying it's your responsibility to do it in the way I say. Feedbacks are primarily signs of interest, not disgust :)
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sunova,
You have made some good suggestions. The unfortunate answer as to "why not" is NIH and personalities. By the later, I mean someone high placed takes any suggestion of change as a challenge to his/her status and authority. I worked for 55 years before retiring, nearly half in government and half in private industry with most of the latter in mega-corporations. My experience boils down to the observation that "scum rises to the top." Organizational efficiency and success is achieved in spite of upper management, not as claimed, because of upper management.

Ebuild analysis could indeed be better. What does "dependency bad 127" mean?
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jserink
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a a learning curve, i'll grant you that. But, this is a Unix variant so that is expected, no?
I started with linux 25 years ago using SUSE.....but i realised i wasn't leaning linux, i was leaning YAST.
So i dumped SUSE.
And the thing was, linux comes with gcc so why on earth would you have someone else compiling the code for you? If you want to use pre-compiled binaries, there is this product out of Redmond Washington....
So i arrived here, 20 or so years ago.
You could go the Linux From Scratch route but that requires loads of secretarial work in regards to what is installed, what depends on what etc....enter portage.
Is it perfect? no.
But it works.
i'm going to learn about ebuilds, its on my list after i retire.

cheers,
john
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CaptainBlood
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sunova wrote:
IRC people jump in front of you and say: "You are not supposed to do it in this way".
Such behavior can be found elsewhere, e.g. on the forum. Could it be the same buddies?
jserink wrote:
You could go the Linux From Scratch route but that requires loads of secretarial work in regards to what is installed, what depends on what etc....enter portage.
Is it perfect? no.
But it works.
+1, gentoo could be used as dependency model for building LFS.
jserink wrote:
There is a learning curve.
Ebuild writing related pages aren't easy reading. I guess their usage will improve over time.
Thks 4 ur attention, interest & support.
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figueroa
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sunova wrote:
First, I consider myself as a hated one on the IRC channel

I can see why from the rest of your rant. In order to have influence, the first step is to play well with others and make friends.
Welcome.
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Hu
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sunova wrote:
The problem is in the core, package manager, Portage. Writing ebuilds can be over complicated, because of all the complexities those bashrc, env, ebuild phases, eclasses, etc add to them. E.g. someone wants to write a simple hook. It might seem naive and trivial to you, but not everybody wants to create a bashrc script, add a "[[ EBUILD_PHASE=blah ]] && do some stuff" bash script to simply add a variable to /etc/env.d (do we have an eclass for this? I don't know! Am I supposed to know? It's supposed to be a "simple hook" FFS... ).
In your opinion, how should a simple hook be done?
sunova wrote:
Finally, attitudes towards feedback/suggestions are interesting to me. Most of the times IRC people jump in front of you and say: "You are not supposed to do it in this way". You claim that it's a meta distribution. How come you decide how people should/shouldn't do it?
In some cases, "Don't do it that way" is exactly the correct response, because the elaborated form is "Don't do it that way, because your problem can be solved more simply by doing X instead." Now, if the response was "Don't do it that way" and there was no explanation as to why not, then the response is not helpful. Without context, I cannot say which scenario you encountered.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hu wrote:
Now, if the response was "Don't do it that way" and there was no explanation as to why not, then the response is not helpful.

Do anyone really explains the "Do it this way"? Generally no, you want list files in a package "equery f package", do you really have time to explains why using equery would be better than another method?
Why the case "don't do it that way" cannot be use like that too?, either you have explains it millions times, and someone could seek the why not if he wants, or just because it is "natural" to see the way you are doing is totally wrong.

Would you be shock to get a "don't do it that way" answer to "I place a piece of wood on my nails and I jump on it to drive them in", do anyone have need to explains why it is wrong?
It is an helpful answer, even the user have no idea why it was helpful, he might consider it helpful and seek himself why you are telling him don't do it that way. I'm sure he will find fast why a hammer may help.

But while user may take simply a "use a hammer" answer without any need to get the why ; most of the time they won't find acceptable to get a "don't do it this way" answer without the reason.

The real answer exist : if anyone tells you "use equery" and someone think a better method exist, he will post it
If you get a "don't use it that way" and nobody else disagree or giving you the good "way", it is mostly because there's no better way to help you ; either because your post was construct in a way that explaining you would be going against you and you don't want explains something to someone knowing from start he won't agree with it.
Or just because it is obvious and nobody should have to gives you the why.

For me, sunova attitude show the explains of why he is not welcome on irc and why people would prefer giving a short answer than a full explain.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sunova,

Three points on your post.

a) After the nipple, all interfaces need to be learned.
Read the devmanual

b)
sunova wrote:
Why don't you think about a CI/CD template ...

There is no 'you' here' only us. That makes you one of us.

c) All gentoo contributors are volunteers. Patches are always welcome.
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NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.
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duane
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Joined: 03 Jun 2002
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If gentoo is dying, then I must be a necrophile, since I keep coming back.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

duane,

Nobody ever leaves Gentoo, they just stray for a while. :)
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NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.
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sunova
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
sunova,
You have made some good suggestions. The unfortunate answer as to "why not" is NIH and personalities. By the later, I mean someone high placed takes any suggestion of change as a challenge to his/her status and authority. I worked for 55 years before retiring, nearly half in government and half in private industry with most of the latter in mega-corporations. My experience boils down to the observation that "scum rises to the top." Organizational efficiency and success is achieved in spite of upper management, not as claimed, because of upper management.

Experience is gold, it's wise of admins to make you their advocate.

figueroa wrote:
I can see why from the rest of your rant. In order to have influence, the first step is to play well with others and make friends.
Welcome.

I'm aged enough to get the advice behind your words and yes you're right, but don't expect a Gen Z ppl to smile when you call their words "rant". It's not 1983.

Hu wrote:
In your opinion, how should a simple hook be done?

They should just be defined well. A hook I suggest should not be a part of the package installation process, it's executed before/after installing/removing/updating a package, therefore someone should be able to write a hook without knowing anything about ebuild phases and other internals. Pacman hooks are good examples. Yet adding too much keyword and making a semi-DSL is not good, that's among what makes systemd a crap.

Hu wrote:
In some cases, "Don't do it that way" is exactly the correct response, because the elaborated form is "Don't do it that way, because your problem can be solved more simply by doing X instead." Now, if the response was "Don't do it that way" and there was no explanation as to why not, then the response is not helpful. Without context, I cannot say which scenario you encountered.


As you said it might depend on the case, there is no right or wrong way of doing something, but people who are here are I believe enough experienced to leverage the flexibility of a "meta distribution". They could have stuck to Arch.
NeddySeagoon wrote:
There is no 'you' here' only us. That makes you one of us.

My pleasure, sir.

NeddySeagoon wrote:
All Gentoo contributors are volunteers. Patches are always welcome.

I'm still learning, I hope someday my efforts accompany my, so said, rants.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sunova,

Posting here is a contribution to Gentoo.

You ask questions, make suggestions and so on.
The questions and answers will help others.
That makes you one of us.

Everyone contributes according to their skills, which change with time.
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NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.
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