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John-Boy
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 5:47 am    Post subject: England moves to 'opt out' organ donation system Reply with quote

linky

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All adults in England will be automatically considered organ donors from today, unless they opt out, after a change in the law.



This implied consent, she doesn't sit comfortably with me - also knowing the NHS (and I do know the NHS), I'm willing to bet that there'll be more than one case where they take organs even with an opt-out declaration.
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think of it this way, informed consent is too vague. This way, there is more clarity that you have been informed of your consent.
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a brilliant idea and most countries are moving towards this direction.

I don't know anyone who wouldn't want their organs used but most don't carry donor cards and by the time the hospital finds out they do it could be too late which could be the difference between life and death for 5 people
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The most progressive organ donation program appears to be China's.
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
The most progressive organ donation program appears to be China's.
I am unaware of their's but I think choice is always important. Even in a opt-out system (I think) the doctors have to ask the family first if they have objections
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the hospital has to ask first, how does that work with your prior statement about it being too late if they have to "find out" which sounds like "asking" first? I presume that means asking next of kin / someone allowed to legally make that decision?
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokey wrote:
pjp wrote:
The most progressive organ donation program appears to be China's.
I am unaware of their's but I think choice is always important. Even in a opt-out system (I think) the doctors have to ask the family first if they have objections
China's policy is more like forced donations, if I understand correctly.

You are really stretching it if you think they need permission to harvest anything. If you are a donor and they check their boxes they take your organs no questions. They only need your family's permission if you are not a donor.
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so what? what use do you have for them once you are dead
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
so what? what use do you have for them once you are dead
Who says you are dead? :twisted:

Okay, seriously. There are plenty of stories about doctors not trying as hard for organ donors. Instead they move to harvesting organs before they become non-viable over continuing to attempt life saving operations. I certainly would want to trust a faceless ER doc to make that decision.
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
Naib wrote:
so what? what use do you have for them once you are dead
Who says you are dead? :twisted:

Seriously, if you are dead in a meaningful sense every cell of you
then nobody has any use of an organ (dead) from you :(
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothing quite as macabre as your organs being worth more than your life.

A ramp full of lear jets waiting for the parts comes close, but your life has value, right? You should really see it some time, the crews and planes, waiting.
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
so what? what use do you have for them once you are dead


Ancient Egyptians would disagree.
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokey wrote:
This is a brilliant idea and most countries are moving towards this direction.

I don't know anyone who wouldn't want their organs used but most don't carry donor cards and by the time the hospital finds out they do it could be too late which could be the difference between life and death for 5 people


I don't like it, it's the thought of choice being taken away. Also don't trust the opt out system to work.
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
cokey wrote:
This is a brilliant idea and most countries are moving towards this direction.

I don't know anyone who wouldn't want their organs used but most don't carry donor cards and by the time the hospital finds out they do it could be too late which could be the difference between life and death for 5 people


I don't like it, it's the thought of choice being taken away. Also don't trust the opt out system to work.


Agreed. By they way, what guarantees that the will be respected when you opt-out ? Are we supposed to open the bodies of our loved ones to check for ourselves? What a progress.
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sdauth wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
cokey wrote:
This is a brilliant idea and most countries are moving towards this direction.

I don't know anyone who wouldn't want their organs used but most don't carry donor cards and by the time the hospital finds out they do it could be too late which could be the difference between life and death for 5 people


I don't like it, it's the thought of choice being taken away. Also don't trust the opt out system to work.


Agreed. By they way, what guarantees that the will be respected when you opt-out ? Are we supposed to open the bodies of our loved ones to check for ourselves? What a progress.
Be asured both:
As long you live, your hole life at minimum, it'll work for you.
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:

Be asured both:
As long you live, your hole life at minimum, it'll work for you.


Sorry, what ? :lol:
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sdauth wrote:
ulenrich wrote:

Be asured both:
As long you live, your hole life at minimum, it'll work for you.


Sorry, what ? :lol:
Spelling issue makes my night.
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
so what? what use do you have for them once you are dead
Some places have laws against desecration and abuse of corpses. Neither the state nor the Collective should be above the law (or exempted from it).
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sdauth wrote:
Agreed. By they way, what guarantees that the will be respected when you opt-out ? Are we supposed to open the bodies of our loved ones to check for ourselves? What a progress.

Even now, how do you know that the state isn't taking the organs of your dead loved ones? I advocate exhuming their bodies at least once a year, and counting all of the organs to make sure they are still there. Just so that you can be sure they are resting in peace.
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
sdauth wrote:
Agreed. By they way, what guarantees that the will be respected when you opt-out ? Are we supposed to open the bodies of our loved ones to check for ourselves? What a progress.

Even now, how do you know that the state isn't taking the organs of your dead loved ones? I advocate exhuming their bodies at least once a year, and counting all of the organs to make sure they are still there. Just so that you can be sure they are resting in peace.



Cremation, stops resurrection men in their tracks.
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokey wrote:
pjp wrote:
The most progressive organ donation program appears to be China's.
I am unaware of their's but I think choice is always important. Even in a opt-out system (I think) the doctors have to ask the family first if they have objections


Bit late to the party on this one - but what if there's no next of kin and you've opted out ? In that instance you're reliant on the ward clerk, looking your details up whilst being harangued by a medical team to get a move on, or the information/governance dept (whichever) getting your details correct.

Ultimately it doesn't matter to the corpse, but the thought of your wishes being respected matter very much whilst still breathing, and I do not want the state dictating that the ex-me is their property completely. In my case a living will helps some (and I have that), may need to make some changes to account for this.
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
If the hospital has to ask first, how does that work with your prior statement about it being too late if they have to "find out" which sounds like "asking" first? I presume that means asking next of kin / someone allowed to legally make that decision?
I am not aware of the specifics but I can imagine that the is some kind of pragmatism involved. If someone is going to die without a heart in the next bed and there is no-one around then they'll use it. If they can wait 15 minutes to ask they'll probably do so.
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
cokey wrote:
pjp wrote:
The most progressive organ donation program appears to be China's.
I am unaware of their's but I think choice is always important. Even in a opt-out system (I think) the doctors have to ask the family first if they have objections


Bit late to the party on this one - but what if there's no next of kin and you've opted out ? In that instance you're reliant on the ward clerk, looking your details up whilst being harangued by a medical team to get a move on, or the information/governance dept (whichever) getting your details correct.

Ultimately it doesn't matter to the corpse, but the thought of your wishes being respected matter very much whilst still breathing, and I do not want the state dictating that the ex-me is their property completely. In my case a living will helps some (and I have that), may need to make some changes to account for this.
They probably check a database so it'll be virtually instantaneous
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokey wrote:
They probably check a database so it'll be virtually instantaneous


It would be an online check, you've then got to hope that it's actually online and whoever is doing the looking is actually competent
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
cokey wrote:
They probably check a database so it'll be virtually instantaneous


It would be an online check, you've then got to hope that it's actually online and whoever is doing the looking is actually competent
If they weren't they probably wouldn't be working at a hospital. Mistakes are made all the time but that is life.

The £6 billion IT shitstorm might be the NHS' downfall
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