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gigel
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thezombiehunter wrote:
asturm wrote:
You're doing something wrong then


I wonder if his laptop is thermal throttling. i5 laptops are slow in general and bad at multitasking but if this is a ultrabook or something that would explain things.

Source: My i7 laptop hits 101C while gaming and it is thick with good cooling.


Code:

 cat  /sys/devices/system/cpu/intel_pstate/max_perf_pct
70


sure it is, if i let it by itself it reaches astronomical frequencies and temperatures. i left it in the yard while compiling and it melt all the snow :)
i know i'm doing something wrong here, i'm rather masochistic, and it's not easy to let go to a more than 10 years old love, even though it became a pain in the a$$.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gigel wrote:
i would've migrated to arch in a second but i'm in a remote place and i lack any usb drive to be able to boot from it.


Don't let that stop you (or can you not boot the system at all?).

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Install_Arch_Linux_from_existing_Linux

I used arch for a year or so recently. It works fine, but I did so much tinkering with arch packages, that it ended up being more time-consuming than gentoo. It took me about 24 hours (recently) to install a complete gentoo xfce system, with lots of bloated applications, on a core2 with 2G of ram. I did have to make a swap file.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found Arch annoying when I tried it roughly a decade ago. I doubt that it has become any better with the advent of "new" "init" "services".
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Split off the least amount of tracking of any browser.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about Funtoo? It looks like it has more Subarches than Calculate or Sabayon.
https://www.funtoo.org/Subarches
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Funtoo is OK. There's no offical systemd support in Funtoo, though... if you need it or want to have the possibility to switch.
But, there may be some interesting development going on...
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried Arch when it came out and when lots of Gentoo users were switching. I didn't like it and still don't like it.


From a noob perspective arch is more difficult and less clean. It was also very problematic in the past and easy to break with updates - at least for me.

I really don't see any Arch advantages over Gentoo.
The only think that makes me wonder is how many users claim that their Arch build is faster than their Gentoo build.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zucca wrote:

But, there may be some interesting development going on...

Finally someone will really do it ... nobody ever promised something like that to lure users ;-) He will keep the poor i hooked for years waiting for godot..
C1REX wrote:

The only think that makes me wonder is how many users claim that their Arch build is faster than their Gentoo build.


For most people the only difference is compiling with -O2 or '-O2 -march=native' and on a lot of processors -march=native makes very little difference.
Arch also uses "-fno-plt -z,relro,-z,now" by default which could make it a bit snappier if not faster on some processors.
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Last edited by erm67 on Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
Zucca wrote:

But, there may be some interesting development going on...

Finally someone will really do it ... nobody ever promised something like that to lure users ;-)
C1REX wrote:

The only think that makes me wonder is how many users claim that their Arch build is faster than their Gentoo build.


For most people the only difference is compiling with -O2 or '-O2 -march=native' and on a lot of processors -march=native makes very little difference.
Arch also uses "-fno-plt -z,relro,-z,now" by default which could make it a bit snappier if not faster on some processors.



Another problem with native is that it not always detects the cpu and setups generic x86-64 instead. I've never understood why people would rely on autodetection when using gentoo.
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duane
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd been using gentoo off and on for over a decade before I tried archlinux, and I still found archlinux MUCH easier to install. It was easier to get my hardware working, and (at least at first) I didn't feel a need to compile a kernel. I only ran it for a year or so, but I don't remember any serious update issues.

Arch ran games and video transcoding exactly as fast as the fastest I could achieve with gentoo. I suspect there are people that could get more speed out of gentoo, even on my hardware, but probably not much more.

They both have good documentation, but arch probably has more. Also, arch has a much easier set of scripts for making personalized livecds, for what that's worth.

I keep thinking I'll try artix one of these days, but I'd still end up running more unnecessary software than I run on gentoo.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C1REX wrote:

Another problem with native is that it not always detects the cpu and setups generic x86-64 instead. I've never understood why people would rely on autodetection when using gentoo.

Maybe gcc correctly detects that generic_x86-64 is all that CPU can do ..... or the correct name for the architecture is just an alias fo x86_64 internally. If you only relay on cpu optimization the speed gains will be very little also on an expensive I7:

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=linux-50-march&num=1
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMHO Binary package built by other people is an additional attack surface. If the user is ok with that then why not to try other distros :)
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I prefer arch on laptops. Desktops and servers are where Gentoo reign supreme.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
C1REX wrote:

Another problem with native is that it not always detects the cpu and setups generic x86-64 instead. I've never understood why people would rely on autodetection when using gentoo.

Maybe gcc correctly detects that generic_x86-64 is all that CPU can do ..... or the correct name for the architecture is just an alias fo x86_64 internally. If you only relay on cpu optimization the speed gains will be very little also on an expensive I7:

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=linux-50-march&num=1



https://www.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/ekbxcy/ryzen_znver2_stdenv_support/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share


Some reports detecting to high and making some software to crash on boot.


It's not often but happens. Worth to check if system defects your CPU ot to set it up manually.
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erm67
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C1REX wrote:


It's not often but happens. Worth to check if system defects your CPU ot to set it up manually.


native also sets the cache size for the current CPU, most gentoo sers know how to do that. However the point is that even if it is correct there is little difference on most CPUs using -march or not on x86_64. While instead "-Wl,-z,relro -Wl,-z,now -fno-plt" will make program start faster.

gcc ML wrote:
I really don't see a need to make no-PLT code gen support lazy binding
when it's necessarily going to be costly to do so, and precludes most
of the benefits of the no-PLT approach. Anyone still wanting/needing
lazy binding semantics can use PLT, and can even choose on a per-TU
basis (or maybe even more fine-grained with pragmas/attributes?).
Those of us who are suffering the cost of PLT with no benefits
(because we use -Wl,-z,relro -Wl,-z,now) can just be rid of it (by
adding -fno-plt) and enjoy something like a 10% performance boost in
PIC/PIE.


I remember reading on the linaro ML that the benefits of no-plt are even more evident on aarch64 than on x86_64, and working on the terminal seems a lot faster with that optimization. The overall speed for CPU intensive programs is probably the same. That is why some people think arch is faster, shell commands are faster. And safer, just give a look at this howto exploit relro guide:
https://medium.com/@HockeyInJune/relro-relocation-read-only-c8d0933faef3

Add to this that the backward mentality of some gentoers bans -fno-ipt as an evil experimental optimization that ought to be filtered ... while instead "-Wl,-z,relro -Wl,-z,now" are permitted since old and trusted.


A couple of days ago in a bout of madness I installed centos8 on my N2 and I was really surprised by the "slowness", than I remebered that optimization.

BTW I migth try again nix or guix one of this days.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:52 pm    Post subject: Gentoo w/ binaries Reply with quote

I always keep my data in a separate partition (synced with another) have at least two different OS's installed.

Which on the main desktop machine are Calculate and Manjaro, derivatives of Gentoo and Arch, respectively.

Calculate is the most stable and is nothing more than an overlay of Gentoo, with full access to everything Gentoo except with a single iso installation and binaries of the common applications.

calculate-linux.org

(RedCore is another Gentoo based distro).
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Gentoo w/ binaries Reply with quote

dhinds wrote:
I always keep my data in a separate partition (synced with another) have at least two different OS's installed.

Which on the main desktop machine are Calculate and Manjaro, derivatives of Gentoo and Arch, respectively.

Calculate is the most stable and is nothing more than an overlay of Gentoo, with full access to everything Gentoo except with a single iso installation and binaries of the common applications.

calculate-linux.org

(RedCore is another Gentoo based distro).


I suppose I'm a bit of a purist. I will use Debian, but not Ubuntu. Gentoo, but not its derivatives (though I might try out Funtoo, as I have a soft spot in my heart for drobbins). Arch, but not Manjaro (though I do recommend Manjaro to Linux newbies as I find it superior to Debiab derivatives).

Out of curiosity, because I don't think you're a newbie, why are you using Manjaro instead of Arch?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what is the main reason people switch to Arch?

is it the compiling time?
Is compilation time even an argument on a modern Ryzen or Threadripper PC?


From a noob perspective Arch feels like a worse prebuilt gentoo.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coderanger wrote:
Arch packages are not tested well and all the users are really beta-testers.
Most famous bug of the previous year https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/62693 where non tested software was pushed to users and people lost all their data on disks


On the other hand, that bug probably couldn't have affected 99% of the people using arch. I was using it at the time, but I wasn't using lvm or dm-crypt. Arch users find a lot of bugs, but they also fix a lot, and they have a reputation for fixing things fast. Don't ya wanna live on the edge? : )
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C1REX wrote:
So what is the main reason people switch to Arch?

is it the compiling time?
Is compilation time even an argument on a modern Ryzen or Threadripper PC?


From a noob perspective Arch feels like a worse prebuilt gentoo.


Well a lot of people thinks that upstream, the person(s) that wrote and maintains the code of a package know what are they doing and are responsible of their code. Distro dev instead are responsible for the packaging and installation of the work of upstream and also act as a relay between upstream und users. After all is upstream that fixes eventual bugs or approves patches. The main philosophy behind archlinux is that, if upstream releases version x.y.z to replace version x.y.k because it fixes lots of bugs or otherwise improve the program, the best thing to do is release ASAP a package that replaces version x.y.k with version x.y.z. If bugs are found they are worked together with upstream.

distro devs do not automaticallyt become KDE developers just because they package the work of upstream. It's upstream that wrote KDE and their work should be respected. They call archlinux bleeding edge but the truth is that if you have a problem it's upstream that will ultimately fix it and upstream will only fix bugs in the release upstream considers actual, not in an old release full of bugs that were fixed maybe years before.

debian stable will ship 'old' versions of programs but debian has a backport team that backports patches to supported older releases, after all is debian that decided to ship older versions in the name of debian-stability so they should also do the backporting work.

Arch has very few devs and relays only on upstream so they distribute what is upstream-stable with the options that upstream enables by default and don't need to backport anything. That is because they don't want to ship packages that are unmaintained. And usually upstream devs are very happy to fix bugs in what upstream consider a stable release of the the software upstream wrote and maintains.

There might be packaging bugs in Arch only due to arch devs of course :-)

That is also why gentoo ships old unmaintained versions of programs in what they call arch, mainly for internal reasons, but since there is no backport team only packaging problems will be fixed, as soon as there is a problem with a program you should install the ~arch version of the program that is probably closer to what upstream considers stable and maintains so that it is more likely that upstream will consider an eventual bug report to fix a bug.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:32 am    Post subject: Re: Gentoo w/ binaries Reply with quote

dhinds wrote:
I always keep my data in a separate partition (synced with another) have at least two different OS's installed.

Which on the main desktop machine are Calculate and Manjaro, derivatives of Gentoo and Arch, respectively.

Calculate is the most stable and is nothing more than an overlay of Gentoo, with full access to everything Gentoo except with a single iso installation and binaries of the common applications.

calculate-linux.org

(RedCore is another Gentoo based distro).


Instead of installing OSs on various partitions: why not use Bedrock Linux?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
Zucca wrote:

But, there may be some interesting development going on...

Finally someone will really do it ... nobody ever promised something like that to lure users ;-) He will keep the poor i hooked for years waiting for godot..
C1REX wrote:

The only think that makes me wonder is how many users claim that their Arch build is faster than their Gentoo build.


For most people the only difference is compiling with -O2 or '-O2 -march=native' and on a lot of processors -march=native makes very little difference.
Arch also uses "-fno-plt -z,relro,-z,now" by default which could make it a bit snappier if not faster on some processors.


I wonder how difficult it would be to strip out the performance improvements from Clear Linux to put into some alternative Gentoo kernel. However, I don't know how many of them would qualify as Intel 'blob'. It would be nice to see Gentoo out on the cutting edge of performance on the latest hardware!
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terry Davis.

I don't think O2 and march optimisation matters at all as it affects small percentage of software that do heavy calculations and make CPUs work near 100%. Most of apps don't do that.

I'm pretty sure that when people call OS fast they mean small RAM usage, snappiness and how quickly the OS and apps boot. That usually is about packages size and OS settings.

In this case USE flags on Gentoo are more important and optimisation for size that affect snappiness.


Beacue of two kinds of speed the discussion can be confusing at times. For examples 32bit apps are lighter but slower at the same time. Same as Os vs O3 optimisation. I guess no march flag vs native as well.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
While instead "-Wl,-z,relro -Wl,-z,now -fno-plt" will make program start faster.

Iirc I have seen such options (at least the 2 first) for a while now, but didn't find out their purpose/interest.

Now I've decided to add them.
I understand it's better to use both two first altogether.

As i understand it, -fno-plt is beneficial only if relro is enabled.
For completeness, I'm wondering still if -fno-plt remains beneficial if only the first is enabled, i.e. no -Wl,-z,now?

Thks 4 ur attention, interest & support.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

duane wrote:
On the other hand, that bug probably couldn't have affected 99% of the people using arch. I was using it at the time, but I wasn't using lvm or dm-crypt. Arch users find a lot of bugs, but they also fix a lot, and they have a reputation for fixing things fast. Don't ya wanna live on the edge? : )


I prefer to keep a serious face when the data has been lost after the last update, although only half an hour is left before the meeting with the client, and a good deal is likely to fail :D
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