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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
ulenrich wrote:
A non-voter should have power! He should be counted when not voting! In a referendum his vote should be counted NO
So someone who voluntarily elects not to vote should still be counted? If the person wanted to vote no, they would have voted no.

I do not believe you have thought that through.

I would solve voter turnout problems I believe. "NO" is counted also in parliamentary elections.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why assume a no vote. Why not split it 50/50. Half no, half yes.

If you want to go all out authoritarian, just throw people in jail for not voting. Maybe give them the death penalty.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
just throw people in jail for not voting. Maybe give them the death penalty.

maybe the death penalty would be too harsh but yes it exists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_voting
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

e3k wrote:
Old School wrote:
just throw people in jail for not voting. Maybe give them the death penalty.

maybe the death penalty would be too harsh but yes it exists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_voting
That is fucking sick and demented. If one does not want to participate, that is one's choice.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
ulenrich wrote:
A non-voter should have power! He should be counted when not voting! In a referendum his vote should be counted NO
So someone who voluntarily elects not to vote should still be counted? If the person wanted to vote no, they would have voted no.

I do not believe you have thought that through.
or even worse, since the "proposal" is all non-votes are votes for no, suddenly all the questions are negatives

"do you want to remain in the EU"
Yes [ ]
No [ ]

the non-votes are, by the proposal a no and thus by a simple flipping of the question a lot more votes for a certain way.

What about a question of

"should the government not invade poland"
Yes [ ]
No [ ]

all non-votes counted as no..


Seriously this is like the worst idea ever...



A better fucking idea is fucking politicians start listening to those they represent and THUS protest votes, protests, riots are MINIMISED... look across Europe, europe is not a happy place because the people are sick and tired of those that are suppose to represent them, are not
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At this point the question is wether referenda do expire. In our legislation, for example, referenda are legally binding (the parliament must respect the result) but only for 5 years, other legislation (like in Switzerland I think) it is even less like one year. In fact they keep repeating the same referendums again and again every couple of years.
Beside being an "illegal" "non binding" "consultive" referendum the brexit consultation also doesn't carry an expiration label like referenda in country where they are legal?

Even marriage no longer last forever in modern times.....
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How Aussies deal with compulsory voting
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
How Aussies deal with compulsory voting
or even if you just are mad about politicians in general you can take the the chance during the elections to just let them know.

It is understandable that people draw dicks to politicians when they are forced to go to vote even if they personally do not like any of the candidates. But the Serbs are going to the voluntary elections to draw dicks even if nobody forces them. That is Democracy v2.0. We have all to learn a lot from them.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Old School wrote:
ulenrich wrote:
A non-voter should have power! He should be counted when not voting! In a referendum his vote should be counted NO
So someone who voluntarily elects not to vote should still be counted? If the person wanted to vote no, they would have voted no.

I do not believe you have thought that through.
or even worse, since the "proposal" is all non-votes are votes for no, suddenly all the questions are negatives

"do you want to remain in the EU"
Yes [ ]
No [ ]
In my proposal a "No" answer to a question must result in no change. simply ...
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

R.Johnson: As if democracy has stopped three and a half years ago
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
In my proposal a "No" answer to a question must result in no change. simply ...

In my opinion, your proposal is authoritarian and anti-democratic.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
ulenrich wrote:
In my proposal a "No" answer to a question must result in no change. simply ...

In my opinion, your proposal is authoritarian and anti-democratic.

Exactly... 1984 was a warning not an instruction manual. Any govn aim is to stay in power, in 1984 this was achieved by ensuring everything stayed the same so the concept of "better times" didn't exist. Boom and bust were gone because the perpetual war consumed the production of industry

By assigning a result to non-voters to maintain the status quo, the shift will then be toward denying people the right to vote to maintain the status quo

Those who have no respect for democracy or the three branches (executive, legislative, legal) should not be lecturering others on the concept
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
In my opinion, your proposal is authoritarian and anti-democratic.

I reject being authoritarian and anti-democratic just because I am a radical fan of representive democracy and I hate any direct democracy, because this is anti-democraticely mishandling the minorities. This looses freedom for everyone in the long term.

This firstly was the circumstance why Athens collapsed and Alexander came as the greates war hero of all times some decades later. We don't need another hero. This shows us Hitler some thousand years later.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
By assigning a result to non-voters to maintain the status quo, the shift will then be toward denying people the right to vote to maintain the status quo
You should look into what a swiss direct democracy needs to get it work. I haven't looked into it. But I know it is very different from what you'd think.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Famously, it took a federal court decision to finally grant women the right to vote in the last Swiss Canton in - wait for it - 1991, as several polls could not get there.

If done honestly, this would have been handled much differently in UK either. In Switzerland, there is a long time for preparation ahead of the vote with detailed information for the people. The parties can campaign for their cause, but it is much harder for them to get away with blatant lies. Even though every leaver now pretends otherwise, it was a non-binding vote; and that is the only reason why it hasn't been overturned due to massive campaign finance violations. And incidentally, another report on Russian influence in the Leave campain is now being held back until after the elections...
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Even though every leaver now pretends otherwise, it was a non-binding vote; and that is the only reason why it hasn't been overturned due to massive campaign finance violations.

I hope you can provide citation for all that. Everyone knows the referendum was non-binding, it wasn't until the act was passed in parliament did leaving become a legal option, something all sides voted for. The lib-dem's agreed to the referendum as part of the coalition yet they now want to revoke...

The EU own court has found a case against the anti-eu group to be bias: https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1201388/Brexit-news-Nigel-Farage-EU-Parliament-European-court-of-Justice-latest-update

NCA investigation into vote-leave actually cleared Banks: https://twitter.com/sebastianepayne/status/1176406303121563648

Vote-remain used the same spending tactics as vote leave: https://order-order.com/2018/03/26/remain-campaign-used-exactly-spending-tactics-vote-leave-far-worse/
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Switzerland there are so many referendums that most people does not partecipate with their vote; since there is no minumum number of paticipants sometimes a few votes can decide the result, but the disfunctional Swiss direct "democracy" is certainly not a model ..

The problem is that every year a number of people dies and a number of people becomes 18 years old and can vote, as the time goes by a lot of people >18 had never a chance to vote in "the Referendum" and a lot of people that voted no longer exists. Remember how some people was contesting the result of the 1975 rederendum since they did not had a chance to vote in it?
Of course "The sacred referendum" can't represent forever the will of the people. On the other side repeating the same referendum every year hoping that everybody gets fed up with the question and nobody shows up for the vote like in Switzerland where sometimes a few voters decide on important matters is simply stupid.

5 or 10 years is probably a more correct figure, not really a problem since the brexit apparently will be posponed forever :-)

Remember that it was the UK that wrote the article 50 of the EU constitution hoping to be kicked out of it automatically after 2 years.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@erm67
never could tell better all the issues with a referendum.

But I do have an additional issue with it: Although I am more interested in pollitics than most of the people I don't have the intellectual guts to think into all issues, as example:

Just today a new thread is born in this forum about a law born in Berlin to limit free speech in social media. I know it was problematic and all the youth in Germany demonstrated against. But I am more interested in War and Peace around the world. I don't get all the Pros and Cons about it and would not like to take part in a referendum about.

If I was given the responsability to change something in a referendum, I just wish I can say
Nothing should change or the MPs in Parliament should make up their minds.
I wish not voting in a referendum is just a simple "NO"
... for all the issues I am not interested to take the time going into a problem.

It is because I don't trust all the people who got emotionally involved in that issue without any reasonable thought.
I would wish any referendum in a democracy happens at any time the initiators think it should. ... As long as all the NO and additional all the non-voters are counted a majority, which I hope is most of the time. If Parliament thinks a majority of voter turn out decided something what a majority of all voters think, MPs would get it and prepare that law before the next general election. This last one arguement is heating the debate of the general election in the UK. So, we all don't need a decicive referendum.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WTF are you all still arguing about?

Brexit in any meaningful form as the people of UK wanted, will NOT happen.

There will be a deal, a general election and status quo.

STOP ARGUING!
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
Brexit in any meaningful form as the people of UK wanted, will NOT happen.

'Leaving the EU' can mean many different things, but the people were never asked about that 'meaningful form', the referendum result was hijacked by the hardline leavers who immediately shifted goalposts after the referendum. Famously, Farage as the poster child of 'Leave.EU' touted the Norwegian model before the vote - Norway is in the single market -, but then blasted it as a 'betrayal of democracy' only two months afterwards. Another sign of the complete lack of preparation ahead of the referendum. The confusion is still evident even in (parts of) the Labour party, who at least until recently were deluded enough to believe they could leave BUT still have a say in trade negotiations of the EU.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
@erm67
never could tell better all the issues with a referendum.

I wish not voting in a referendum is just a simple "NO"
... for all the issues I am not interested to take the time going into a problem.



As you can see in this table:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_by_country
Less than a dozen countries in the world have legally binding referendums, the mayoriy of them set a threshold turnout that basically implies that not voting is like voting against the referendum.

Apparently you live in one of the handful countries that doesn't have such threshold ............if you have that problem basically either you live in die Schweiz or in Croatia ....


There is a video in the press where Verhofstadt is trying to convince Junker that the EU should decide some measures to put some pressure on UKians, of course this situation is all in their favour, they retain all benefits of an EU country, disrespect all obbligations and maybe think this could last forever. It is obvious that soon to stay in Article 50 purgatory needs to be made more expensive.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

linky

It's troubling - old JB currently resides in a safe labour constituency - they could commit the massacre of the innocents here and still get voted in - so I can vote for the Brexit party


But ..

If it's a bit narrower, who do you vote for on the 12th ? Labour must, at any costs be kept out of office.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is like Muso stated, Labour is equal to the criminal Democrat Party and the Tories are the inept Republicans of the US.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
It is like Muso stated, Labour is equal to the criminal Democrat Party and the Tories are the inept Republicans of the US.


What's the US equivalent of Lord Buckethead?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Old School wrote:
It is like Muso stated, Labour is equal to the criminal Democrat Party and the Tories are the inept Republicans of the US.


What's the US equivalent of Lord Buckethead?


Vermin Supreme comes close.
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