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aidanjt
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike155 wrote:
Michał Górny wrote:
[...]

See: https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/b3adb67c617a8c4b367f2a35adb19f69

This is one of the most offending, arrogant and disgusting posts I've read so far.


Honestly, arrogant nonsense like that is what turned me away from using Gentoo. It also doesn't help that the tree is a dysfunctional mess and portage hasn't received any real optimisations to handle the tree's sprawling metadata complexity. Maybe that should be the priority before bothering themselves with monopolising the support situation, not that there's anywhere near enough of them to handle their existing load, much less that.

Perhaps they should be talking about how they can narrow their own focus on more core components, and open up development more on peripheral packages, instead. Or just open up in general and make better use of available development tools in a more flexible, informal, and less ivory towery way. Because the current governance structure clearly isn't working. If you could say it ever worked at all, Gentoo has been on a gradual decline ever since DR left, if I'm being honest.

Just a thought, fellas.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always wondered why pip did not install packages system-wide in gentoo :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

We can add this 'a technical hack to a social problem' to the list of gentoo disfunctions
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike155 wrote:
Michał Górny wrote:
"I don't think OTW is a major problem. ... Forums tend to breed very bad 'solutions'."

"Forums are home to many horrible 'solutions'. "

"Forum victims"

"Forums is frequently a source of bad information"

See: https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/b3adb67c617a8c4b367f2a35adb19f69

This is one of the most offending, arrogant and disgusting posts I've read so far.
Wow...just wow. You're not kidding. I mean not to discount the work that devs do but frankly without the help available on this forum, which is second to none, hardly anyone would use this thing. The bad solutions crap is nonsense too. I don't think I've ever seen pip mentioned when it wasn't instantly pointed out that you're begging to break portage. Arrogant almost doesn't cover it.

As I mentioned previously in this thread (and apparently it's already been considered) I'd love it if there was a section for non-Gentoo Linux questions and discussions outside of OTW. The reason for that, again, is that there's no other forum anywhere where I'd rather ask general Linux related questions.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You didn't notice well the (who are not Forum moderators, I should add) which tells a lot to me.
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saellaven
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michał Górny wrote wrote:

A side effect of the former problem is that Forums are home to many
horrible 'solutions'. Sadly, those solutions sometimes involve making
things *much worse* than they were before. This is problem both for
users who end up victims of having their systems broken, and developers
who end up having to help fix the resulting breakage.


Funny, many of us here on the forums have provided much better solutions than the handful of devs that throw their weight around, intentionally ignoring us even when we do play in their sand box. In addition to TomWij, we can talk about all of the intentional damage and deceit done by William Hubbs and the rest of his cabal that intentionally set out to break people's systems, diminish how robust they are, wedged systemd in, and crippled openrc to the point where many of us intentionally stopped at a version (0.12, 0.13, 0.17) that's now years old to avoid his damage.

Now, the same cabal is apparently trying to take over the entire Foundation, destroying anything that stands in their way, even though they have no legal authority to do anything... and the best part, is the Foundation, having signaled the potential for surrender to them a year or so ago, has apparently stepped aside.

As I've been arguing for years, when William Hubbs began his own reign of terror, we need to eliminate the concentration of power from the small handful of individuals that sit on the same projects - Council shouldn't have people on ComRel, users should have seats assigned on Council so that it's not just devs, the devs decided mere plebes couldn't post on their mailing list, etc. Too much power in too few hands is a bad thing, and now the same hands are grabbing for more power.

I see the need to fork in our near future... more than ever before.


Last edited by saellaven on Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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szatox
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, krinn, I noticed that line too.
I used to be a forum moderator myself, and I can't help but wonder why would they want to take on such a tedious task :roll:
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The single, most significant address on the internet, where I have gathered the majority of my Linux knowledge is forums.gentoo.org.

I don't think I need to be any more specific on my opinions about the topic.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tld wrote:
I don't think I've ever seen pip mentioned when it wasn't instantly pointed out that you're begging to break portage.

The user probably were recommended to use pip in other forums, since most python packages dependencies need to be the version distributed with pip ..... and upstream doesn't care about what's in portage and pretend the correct version is used.
BTW I don't remember exacly the details but I had a lot of trouble installing funkwhale on gentoo because npm used to compile the javascript frontend kept using a dependency installed with portage system-wide even if I had installed the correct one with pip in the local environment.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
I see the need to fork in our near future... more than ever before.

For a while now I've been thinking of making an openrc-workalike, both as a learning exercise and to have something that works robustly.

I've been using a self-maintained runit ebuild for the past 5 years or so because *someone* claimed ownership of every init in the main tree and promptly left them to bitrot. Still requires openrc to boot though, and that part's a regular source of hangs.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eliminating the forums due to the presence of users who post bad ideas seems counterproductive. There will always be users who post bad advice. If we have them post it here, knowledgeable users with a history of good answers can jump in and post corrections. Particularly serious offenders can be formally cautioned or banned. (This happens now, but rarely.) If the forums are closed, the people who currently seek advice here will do one of three things:
  • Go straight to filing bugs in Bugzilla. This will overload the developers and prompt them to become hostile to bug reports, or lock down Bugzilla.
  • Go to other venues, where bad advice may not be so readily identified and corrected by veteran users.
  • Leave Gentoo entirely, because they want community support and cannot get it for Gentoo.
None of those paths serve the interests of the project.
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Zucca
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

++1
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hu wrote:
Eliminating the forums due to the presence of users who post bad ideas seems counterproductive. There will always be users who post bad advice. If we have them post it here, knowledgeable users with a history of good answers can jump in and post corrections. Particularly serious offenders can be formally cautioned or banned. (This happens now, but rarely.) If the forums are closed, the people who currently seek advice here will do one of three things:
  • Go straight to filing bugs in Bugzilla. This will overload the developers and prompt them to become hostile to bug reports, or lock down Bugzilla.
  • Go to other venues, where bad advice may not be so readily identified and corrected by veteran users.
  • Leave Gentoo entirely, because they want community support and cannot get it for Gentoo.
None of those paths serve the interests of the project.


Most of the time, brouhaha's like this aren't brought up for the interests of the project, but for an individual or individuals.
It's usually a precursor to a power grab.

Without the forum it would have been much harder to get things like elogind, eudev and other spinoff projects going.
Then we would have been stuck with only the one true way.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Without the forum it would have been much harder to get things like elogind, eudev and other spinoff projects going.
Then we would have been stuck with only the one true way.


Some devs seem to like The One True Way™.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
Without the forum it would have been much harder to get things like elogind, eudev and other spinoff projects going.
Then we would have been stuck with only the one true way.


Some devs seem to like The One True Way™.


Unfortunately when you give those type people too much power, they would rather cripple or destroy the system than have their views challenged. They forget that it's people that build a distro not devs. True without devs the distro would flounder, but without people there would be no reason for devs or the distro.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Without the forum it would have been much harder to get things like elogind, eudev and other spinoff projects going.
Then we would have been stuck with only the one true way.

Time to preliminarily consider the possibility of a migration to LinuxQuestions (where the official Slackware forum, for instance, resides) in a hypothetical extreme situation?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CasperVector wrote:
Time to preliminarily consider the possibility of a migration to LinuxQuestions (where the official Slackware forum, for instance, resides) in a hypothetical extreme situation?
There's also r/Gentoo.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to venture an opinion here. The Gentoo Forums are too vital to the success of Gentoo as a distribution to be eliminated. In addition, I believe that in general we are a vibrant and civil community and that the "signal to noise ratio" of our support is very high: high enough to make allegations that we are a home to, "...many horrible 'solutions'," hilariously false. After all the talk, I truly believe that's the consensus that will develop.

Now that's not to say that we can't make changes, refine our offering and our community. I think we continually do that to some degree already.

In light of the above, I've made some punctuation corrections to the title of this thread that make it more closely reflect what I think our general consensus to be. (I couldn't resist. ;) I'll put it back if you all think I've overstepped.)

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

:lol:
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
I've been using a self-maintained runit ebuild for the past 5 years or so because *someone* claimed ownership of every init in the main tree and promptly left them to bitrot. Still requires openrc to boot though, and that part's a regular source of hangs.

Have you considered building something based on s6? It's not too far from runit design-wise, and you seem like the kind of guy who might have given that a shot already.
I've been toying with the idea for quite some time now, but ultimatly I'm not every knowledgeable in terms of the early boot process and setting up an init system via trial and error is not exactly convenient either.

Zucca wrote:
CasperVector wrote:
Time to preliminarily consider the possibility of a migration to LinuxQuestions (where the official Slackware forum, for instance, resides) in a hypothetical extreme situation?
There's also r/Gentoo.

pls no. Reddit is ok for day to day stuff, but not a viable replacement for a forum.
That said, it would be nice if the forum software was more recent that 2002…
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr.Willy wrote:
Have you considered building something based on s6? It's not too far from runit design-wise, and you seem like the kind of guy who might have given that a shot already.
I've been toying with the idea for quite some time now, but ultimatly I'm not every knowledgeable in terms of the early boot process and setting up an init system via trial and error is not exactly convenient either.

My shameless plug again for slew (I lived up to my promise of holding a poll, but unfortunately nobody responded to it, so the naming convention has not been changed).
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr.Willy wrote:
pls no. Reddit is ok for day to day stuff, but not a viable replacement for a forum.
Then how about something like what Stack Exchange is? Both sites have the voting system, which I think is nice feature, but obviously has its flaws.
Dr.Willy wrote:
That said, it would be nice if the forum software was more recent that 2002…
Has there been any significant upgrades which we don't have but desperately need?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr.Willy wrote:
Have you considered building something based on s6? It's not too far from runit design-wise, and you seem like the kind of guy who might have given that a shot already.
I've been toying with the idea for quite some time now, but ultimatly I'm not every knowledgeable in terms of the early boot process and setting up an init system via trial and error is not exactly convenient either.

I've looked at it a few times and thought about moving to it eventually. s6 seems like a better (maintained, less hacky) place to be, but right now I haven't switched because it's easier to hold all of runit's state space in my head.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr.Willy wrote:
That said, it would be nice if the forum software was more recent that 2002…

To be fair(?), phpBB 2.0.23 was released in 2008. :]

That said, we will be moving on to phpBB 3 (if we are allowed to stay around of course... not that I doubt we will, but you know...).
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We might have to start Not The Gentoo Forums
or something like that. :)
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zucca wrote:
Dr.Willy wrote:
pls no. Reddit is ok for day to day stuff, but not a viable replacement for a forum.
Then how about something like what Stack Exchange is? Both sites have the voting system, which I think is nice feature, but obviously has its flaws.

The thing about Reddit is that it is very much focussed around currently "hot" topics that get all the attention before fading into oblivion. That makes it kindof hard to follow up on an older topic or maintain a sort of mini-community around a certain topic.
I have no experience using SE, is that like StackOverflow?
I think SO is great if you have a question with a very set "Problem -> Solution"-scope, but struggle when it's more layered. Like I have a hard time imagining a thread like this one take place on SO.

Zucca wrote:
Dr.Willy wrote:
That said, it would be nice if the forum software was more recent that 2002…
Has there been any significant upgrades which we don't have but desperately need?

A search function? :P
No, I think it's more the sum of many small things. Like BBCode is fucking stone age, straight out of '00 when XML was all the rage in the java universe. How about an inline-CODE? You know like the thing the cool kids writing markdown can just do with `codehere`? Thinking about it, the Github issue-tracker has some nice features for a discussion forum as a whole.
Or look at the Syncthing Forums for inspiration. I don't know what kind of software they are using, but there are some nice things there.
The overview helps in bringing up topics in otherwise low-traffic subforums, thread-outlines with post-dates for longer/older discussions
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