your opinion: lineageOS, postmarketOS, something else?

[Lebkoungcity]

Hello,

I already had started a thread that's more or less related to this topic: https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1094660.html

Now I'm interested in your opinion on which "OS" to choose for a smartphone when it should be no "spy-device". There are some how are satisfied with deleting or disabling some apps the vendor/distributor/maker of the phone (e.g. facebook-app), some others try to de-google their android-phone to some extend (don't set up a google-account, don't use google's app-store,...). I want to step further. I want the smartphone's system to have no connection to google (or microsoft or facebook or apple,...) at all. My dream would be a complete free smartphone - which is not available at the moment (at least not affordable for me...).
So my question would be: What system to use? For me right now there's lineageOS or postmarketOS:

lineageOS:
pro:
- smartphone is still a 'phone' (e.g. able to make calls)
- more devices are supported (in relation to postmarketOS)
- more people use it (it is in some way more common than postmarketOS)
[- if one would WANT to it would be possible to use the (most or the whole?) android-ecosystem]

contra:
- it's no 'real linux-distribution' (but maybe one could still use kontact with kirigami?)
- it is based on android (and I don't know what that means in the context that it is 'free from google-stuff' - is it a 'no-spy-system' or not?)


postmarketOS:
pro:
- it is a 'real linux-distribution'

contra:
- smartphone would not be a 'phone' (unable to make calls - for the time being; no deal-breaker for me because I still could use my feature-phone for that)
- less supported devices (in relation to lineageOS)
- less common than lineageOS (smaller community to get help from)


The biggest point for me would be: Is it helping others to collect information about me - without my knowledge - more than any cellphone and/or my gentoo-systems would do anyways?
Is lineageOS 'free enough'? (Where can I get hard facts about this?)
Or is postmarketOS - at the moment - the only more or less safe option?

Or do you know another option which would meet with my question?


I'm curious on your opinions!

Thanks a lot for your time
Andy
_________________
"The most dangerous world view is the world view of the ones who haven't viewed the world."
Alexander von Humboldt (1769-1859)

[DawgG]

i recommend you use lineage w/out any gapps - these are optional and not included in the standard release anyway. for software you can use fdroid https://f-droid.org/ where you can be reasonably sure they do not install any spyware (intentionally). of course, if you use your cell-provider's infrastructure they will still know a lot about you.
i've been using this combo for some years now and (within its limits) i'm quite satisfied with it.
when i started using adb i was surprised how much real linux is at the core of the system - you have a shell and basic commands (even vi) and FHS. sometimes additional functionality can be added with extra-progs, eg cron and ssh.
of course, you need to completely wipe and re-install your phone - voiding any warranty. if you do not use google or any other spy-apps a used phone will be powerful enough.
if you need any additional info i'll be glad to help.
GOOD LUCK!
_________________
DUMM KLICKT GUT.

[Makersmarx]

I will also second Lineage OS without Gapps. I have used it for nearly 3 years on an old Nextbit Robin I bought before they went under to Razer. They have recently switched to OTA nightly updates for my phone, so if your into updates they come quick.
_________________
Pura Vida

[Muso]

LineageOS.
_________________
"You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think" ~ Dorothy Parker
2021 is the year of the Linux Desktop!

[depontius]

Two of you have said that you use LineageOS without gapps. My impression is that gapps provides some level of base functionality that a lot of other stuff depends on. Is that impression wrong, or what do you use instead of gapps?

EDIT... By the way, as for security, if it's a phone, it's got a baseband, and the baseband is completely closed-source and out of your control. It is possible to have a "sandboxed baseband", so that the baseband can only control the radio hardware and not spy on the phone. However none of the phone makers say that their baseband is sandboxed, and it appears that most of them don't bother.

There is also the impression that practically every baseband has (at least one) a backdoor for the manufacturer. You pretty much can't stop that, since the baseband is FCC type-accepted. You can only sandbox that. The Librem 5 will be out in the fall - with a clearly sandboxed baseband, and real hardware off switches for cameras, microphones, etc.
_________________
.sigs waste space and bandwidth

[Makersmarx]

Gapps does provide access to some playstore apps that you may not be able to live without ex. maps, waze, google services, etc...there may be work arounds, but I am unaware of them. I just work from home so GPS/maps isnt a deal breaker for me and Fdroid has worked. I highely suggest checking out https://forum.xda-developers.com/lineage these people know much more then I can contribute. I just followed their advice as they were the pros over there. Good luck
_________________
Pura Vida

[389292]

Smartphones are the most frustrating pieces of hardware for us freedom lovers currently. I honestly almost given up on them. Dumb mp3 player is enough for audiobooks, and you can ask for a phone call anyone on the streets, that's surely unspyable/untraceable for anyone except three letter agencies

[fturco]

I use LineageOS, plus F-Droid, minus Gapps. I never tried postmarketOS.

[Elleni]

+1 for lineagos

For the german speaking guys I also recommend the following blog, as there are tutorials around lineage and securing mobile phones in genral:
https://www.kuketz-blog.de/

[Morality124]

If you need Gapps support, there are LineageOS builds that include the microG framework (third-party FLOSS Gapps re-implementation).

Also, have you seen the Librem phone project?

[erm67]

What people doesn't really get is that android will track you also without gapps, the same will individual apps ....

There is maybe something new for android roms:

https://e.foundation/
_________________
Ok boomer
True ignorance is not the absence of knowledge, but the refusal to acquire it.
Ab esse ad posse valet, a posse ad esse non valet consequentia

My fediverse account: @erm67@erm67.dynu.net

[Lebkoungcity]

Hey, cool, thanks a lot for all of your input!

I wouldn't have used Gapps at all anyways But it's always good to express why one shouldn't.

Yeah, I know that baseband is a problem for all the reasons mentioned here but I can't afford a Librem 5. I have some time left until I 'need' (or better 'like to have' ) a smartphone-like mobile device so I can try to get something that meets as much of my expectations as possible
I will keep an eye on the PinePhone but unfortunately it will not be available in time. (And in addition I would wait some time longer to get some real-life reviews before buying it.)

So, do I comprehend all your answers correctly when I conclude that lineageOS is the best solution to meet with my concerns?

I'm not interested in any cloud-/sync-/whatevever-online-feature to store/backup data. Just eMail, a browser (Firefox preferably) and maybe tox (video-chat). Calendar and such should be 'offline' without syncing to any online service - I'd do it either by hand or locally by connecting to my laptop if that would be possible.

erm67, is this still true for lineageOS? Or is it 'clean enough' (without Gapps)?

[fedeliallalinea]

[erm67]

[DawgG]

of course, you can never (fully) trust a consumer-phone with binary firmware.
coupla years ago i used https://replicant.us/ on a samsung i9000 but to be able to *really* use it i had to install binary firmwares.
_________________
DUMM KLICKT GUT.

[fturco]

[depontius]

Let me try this again...

There will always be (at least) one binary blob on your phone - the baseband. It's the firmware that controls the radios, and by radios I mean the cell radios, the wifi, bluetooth, and NFC. In the USA, radio communication is regulated by the FCC, principally for coordination, standards enforcement, and to prevent RFI. (Radio Frequency Interference) Amateur (HAM) Radio is about the only place where the FCC "trusts" individuals to manage their own radio hardware, everything else is subject to certification.

The baseband blob in every phone is FCC certified, and therefore not permitted to be tampered with. Because of this, you are NEVER going to be permitted to do your own baseband. (At least not in practice. I once read of competent people trying to do their own baseband, but the general lack of information from manufacturers doesn't help. When I read of it, they were still back at 2G in the days of 4G, as the carriers were turning off their 2G capability

So given that you're not going to see a FOSS baseband, the next best thing you can do is know that it's sandboxed. In other words, insure that the baseband can ONLY run the radios, and only move data back and forth between the radio and the user OS, under the control of the user OS. THIS is what Librem 5 does. (Plus more, on the user side, but baseband sandboxing is the unique thing.)
_________________
.sigs waste space and bandwidth

[DawgG]

@fturco

[ChrisJumper]

+Lineageos
+f-droid
+ gapps free!
+yalp Store - google play proxy for some free Google Apps.

[Lebkoungcity]

OK, I think it's quite clear now. I will give lineageOS a try with Magisk and AFWall+ and of course without Gapps. And I'll keep Yalp-Store also in my mind

I've been reading through https://www.kuketz-blog.de/ and for me it's detailed on how to do what and why.

depontius:
Yeah, I think you're right with all what you say about baseband. For now my goal is it to make it hard for google, facebook and other corporations. If one of those 'agencies often spelled with three big letters' was after me I think they would even have other methods to get what they want. But maybe it's sufficient for me not to use stock android (and keep away from google, facebook,...) and always think twice when using the net. But maybe this behavior makes me an even more interesting target We'll see...

So now I'm about to search for an used device, that's supported by lineageOS, does not require a blob with google-services inside, does have a replaceable battery and meets with my budget (~50,- €).

Thanks a lot everyone!
Andy
_________________
"The most dangerous world view is the world view of the ones who haven't viewed the world."
Alexander von Humboldt (1769-1859)

[Dr.Willy]

[Lebkoungcity]

[erm67]

[ChrisJumper]

[erm67]