Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
Boeing crashes...
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

 
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Naib
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 5588
Location: Removed by Neddy

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:10 pm    Post subject: Boeing crashes... Reply with quote

"Airbus are shit" "Boeing are shit" ... the usual tit for tat going on this board.
Almost all are rhetoric either for the lulz or misplaced patriotism.

This time however...

Second New Boeing 737 to Crash in Four Months

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/10/ethiopian-flight-302-second-new-boeing-737-max-8-to-crash-in-four-months

Quote:
The Boeing 737 MAX 8, a brand new plane only registered in November, disappeared from the radar six minutes into the flight. Immediate comparisons have been drawn with Lion Air flight 610, which crashed just over four months ago, killing 189 people. Flight data showed erratic climbs and descents before the plane, also a MAX 8, came down 12 minutes after takeoff from Jakarta.


Brand new plane, 2nd to crash in only a few months...
_________________
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter
Great Britain is a republic, with a hereditary president, while the United States is a monarchy with an elective king
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Muso
l33t
l33t


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 968
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was reading the news reports this morning. I'm never flying on one of those.
_________________
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naib
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 5588
Location: Removed by Neddy

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

China have grounded all of their 737 MAX. This has never happened before. The last time there was a fundamental design flaw ( the De Havilland Comet ) and planes fell out of the sky with short periods between, shit hit the fan and De Havilland was no more. Silence from Boeing ...

As I said, plenty of rhetoric over Boeing crashes and Airbus crashes over the years here. All in jest and all completely explainable and one-off's. This is new
_________________
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter
Great Britain is a republic, with a hereditary president, while the United States is a monarchy with an elective king
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Muso
l33t
l33t


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 968
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
China have grounded all of their 737 MAX. This has never happened before. The last time there was a fundamental design flaw ( the De Havilland Comet ) and planes fell out of the sky with short periods between, shit hit the fan and De Havilland was no more. Silence from Boeing ...

As I said, plenty of rhetoric over Boeing crashes and Airbus crashes over the years here. All in jest and all completely explainable and one-off's. This is new


Agreed, which is why this plane scares me.
_________________
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Old School
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 243
Location: West Bank of the Coast Fork

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Naib: With over 350 in service, wouldn't there be more planes dropping out of the sky if it was a software problem?
_________________
I am old enough to remember when SNL was funny

The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.
George Orwell
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
flysideways
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 29 Jan 2005
Posts: 153

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/11/16/world/asia/lion-air-crash-cockpit.html

Last edited by flysideways on Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:05 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naib
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 5588
Location: Removed by Neddy

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
@ Naib: With over 350 in service, wouldn't there be more planes dropping out of the sky if it was a software problem?

Maybe not. The software would have been subjected to DO178 and DO330 so a rigorous process would have been followed, but that still could have left an obscure series of events to trigger something.

The MAX is heavily automated compared to the regular. Maybe a sequence of events triggered an unsafe statemachine. They have two black boxes so they can start delving into common attitude data

Now it still could be human error (remember 50% crashes due to human error and that has held true for 60+years) or poor maintenance. Just two new planes falling out of the sky so close together makes me squirm
_________________
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter
Great Britain is a republic, with a hereditary president, while the United States is a monarchy with an elective king
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naib
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 5588
Location: Removed by Neddy

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well... The 737 MAX is conditionally stable - they had to move the engines to accommodate larger more efficient engine. Boeing needed to add anti stall (MCAS)
My bet is the significance of its intrusion wasn't fully appreciated so the pilots flew as they would expecting 737 response BUT it overrode and continued to as the pilot fought for control. The very thing meant to stop a stall compounded it

The plane will be flagged as safe, the pilots will go on additional training and there maybe an update to provide visual feedback that flight laws are being applied
_________________
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter
Great Britain is a republic, with a hereditary president, while the United States is a monarchy with an elective king
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 17768

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
My bet is the significance of its intrusion wasn't fully appreciated so the pilots flew as they would expecting 737 response BUT it overrode and continued to as the pilot fought for control. The very thing meant to stop a stall compounded it
Could / would you elaborate on what flying characteristics changed versus what pilots were expecting and how that relates to the "fight" for control?
_________________
I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and think things over.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
krinn
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 6968

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Naib wrote:
My bet is the significance of its intrusion wasn't fully appreciated so the pilots flew as they would expecting 737 response BUT it overrode and continued to as the pilot fought for control. The very thing meant to stop a stall compounded it
Could / would you elaborate on what flying characteristics changed versus what pilots were expecting and how that relates to the "fight" for control?

The security to disable the "new" automate compensation of weight and "pushup" given by the new engines is a manual switch.

You have to know the switch, where they are, and what they are use for, and this, within the few seconds you have to react.
The problem is that by its description, it could be seen as non pro-active solution : you drive the plane and it compensate what you ask not to correct your order, but to actually make the order 100% accurate vs how the plane will re-act ; and so many pilot might just dismiss the importance of the manual switchs to disable it with a "at worst lost of a little compensation.
When the reality hit the guys in the face, that with bad values, it does pro-active control, upto pushing down the wheel to crash the plane.

To make a stupid compare, it could be seen as an helper to turn in car, and you were thinking if broken, well, shitty but it will just make the wheel more harder to turn.
And you endup crash, when you see one day the wheel start turn full right without reason, and you didn't have gives a fuck about those manual switchs to disable the wheel helper system...

That's what basically a pilot explains on french tv :)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BonezTheGoon
Bodhisattva
Bodhisattva


Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 1377
Location: Albuquerque, NM -- birthplace of Microsoft and Gentoo

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Could / would you elaborate on what flying characteristics changed versus what pilots were expecting and how that relates to the "fight" for control?


FYI -- the link above from flysideways to the NYTimes is really thorough complete with pictures and diagrams.

Thanks flysideways! Best info on this I've seen yet compiled into a single location!
_________________
mcgruff wrote:
I can't promise to be civil.


pjp wrote:
The greater evil is voting for the "lesser evil."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naib
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 5588
Location: Removed by Neddy

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Naib wrote:
My bet is the significance of its intrusion wasn't fully appreciated so the pilots flew as they would expecting 737 response BUT it overrode and continued to as the pilot fought for control. The very thing meant to stop a stall compounded it
Could / would you elaborate on what flying characteristics changed versus what pilots were expecting and how that relates to the "fight" for control?
The engines had to be moved more forward, this will naturally cause the nose to ride high, increasing its angle of attack. Where the pilot thinks the chord needs to be and where the plane thinks it needs to be could differ
_________________
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter
Great Britain is a republic, with a hereditary president, while the United States is a monarchy with an elective king
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naib
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 5588
Location: Removed by Neddy

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

prelim from boeing "software shortcomings"

The present scheme relied on a single sensor and *IF* that was providing erroneous data, the "anti-stall" could over-compensate.
This update will make use of multiple sensors.

Now I am pissed... This function would have been classed as DAL-A and thus the failure of the single sensor (be it the sensor, harness, interface...) would have been classified as CRI-0... This should NOT have been design nor released based upon one sensor

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/12/stocks-making-the-biggest-moves-midday-boeing-dicks-stitch-fix--more.html
Quote:
Boeing publicly released details about the planned 737 MAX software update late Monday [Editor's note: the link may be paywalled; alternative source]. A company spokesman confirmed the update would use multiple sensors, or data feeds, in MAX's stall-prevention system -- instead of the current reliance on a single sensor. The change was prompted by preliminary results from the Indonesian crash investigation indicating that erroneous data from a single sensor, which measures the angle of the plane's nose, caused the stall-prevention system to misfire. Then, a series of events put the aircraft into a dangerous dive.

_________________
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter
Great Britain is a republic, with a hereditary president, while the United States is a monarchy with an elective king
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
flysideways
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 29 Jan 2005
Posts: 153

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure which reference I found it in, but, the purpose of the MCAS is to counter the forward movement of the center of lift as the aircraft reaches a high angle of attack. It adjusts the stabilizer angle to do so.

If you are really bored go read about the MD11's LSAS.

As a side note, today is the day that all newly minted US 121 pilots need some additional training regarding manual, by hand, flight. That rule was initiated multiple years ago due to the perceived degradation of those skills. One of those drills is manual flown unreliable airspeed. It has been a while since airline pilots started out hand flying small commuters that did not even have autopilots.

Greg Feith posted this https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10216695685377457&id=1620931826&anchor_composer=false He is out in front of official announcements about the other investigation. Time will tell if the official reports support his assertion.

Any old school 727 or 737 pilot knows, without looking, where the stab trim cutout switches are.

This is not an indictment of the pilots. This whole mess is FUBAR.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naib
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 5588
Location: Removed by Neddy

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just a quick update with what is known


https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-to-make-key-change-in-max-cockpit-software-11552413489 12th March
Quote:

Boeing publicly released details about the planned 737 MAX software update on its website late Monday. A company spokesman confirmed the update would include a change to use multiple data feeds in MAX’s stall-prevention system—instead of the current reliance on a single sensor.


https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2019/03/12/boeing-737-max-8-pilots-complained-feds-months-suspected-safety-flaw 12th March
Quote:

Several Boeing 737 Max8 pilots in US complained about suspected safety flaw

One captain even called the Max 8's flight manual "inadequate and almost criminally insufficient," according to the report.

"The fact that this airplane requires such jury-rigging to fly is a red flag. Now we know the systems employed are error-prone — even if the pilots aren't sure what those systems are, what redundancies are in place and failure modes. I am left to wonder: what else don't I know?" wrote the captain.


https://www.wsj.com/articles/pilot-of-crashed-ethiopian-airlines-jet-reported-flight-control-problems-11552473593?mod=hp_lead_pos3 13th March
Quote:

The pilot “reported back to air-traffic controllers that he was having flight-control problems” and wanted to return to Addis Ababa, Mr. Gebremariam said.


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/12/business/boeing-737-grounding-faa.html 12th March
Quote:

Early Tuesday, Dennis A. Muilenburg, the chief executive of Boeing, spoke to President Trump on the phone and made the case that the 737 Max planes should not be grounded in the United States, according to two people briefed on the conversation.



https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-14/boeing-s-600-billion-in-max-orders-at-risk-as-airlines-retreat 14th March
Quote:

Boeing is in crisis as most of the world grounded the plane. On Wednesday, U.S. regulators joined the global chorus by grounding the plane, citing evidence showing the Ethiopian Airlines flight may have experienced the same problem as the plane that went down five months ago off Indonesia.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-13/doomed-737-caught-on-satellite-data-that-could-aid-investigation 13th March
Quote:

The erratic, six-minute flight of the Ethiopian Airlines plane convinced the Federal Aviation Administration that it was close enough to what preceded the Oct. 29 crash of another Max off the coast of Indonesia to warrant concern.

After reviewing the data “it became clear -- to all parties, actually -- that the track of the Ethiopian Airlines flight was very close and behaved very similarly to the Lion Air flight,” agency Acting Administrator Daniel Elwell said Wednesday.




https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/14/world/boeing-737-max-ethiopian-airlines.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage 14th March
Quote:

Break break, request back to home,” the captain told air traffic controllers as they scrambled to divert two other flights approaching the airport. “Request vector for landing.”

Controllers also observed that the aircraft, a new Boeing 737 Max 8, was oscillating up and down by hundreds of feet — a sign that something was extraordinarily wrong.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-15/piece-found-in-crash-wreckage-said-to-show-jet-was-set-to-dive?srnd=premium 15th March
Quote:

The so-called jackscrew, used to set the trim that raises and lowers the plane’s nose, indicates the jet was configured to dive, based on a preliminary review, according to a person familiar with the investigation.

_________________
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter
Great Britain is a republic, with a hereditary president, while the United States is a monarchy with an elective king
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
patrix_neo
Guru
Guru


Joined: 08 Jan 2004
Posts: 515
Location: The Maldives

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Naib wrote:
My bet is the significance of its intrusion wasn't fully appreciated so the pilots flew as they would expecting 737 response BUT it overrode and continued to as the pilot fought for control. The very thing meant to stop a stall compounded it
Could / would you elaborate on what flying characteristics changed versus what pilots were expecting and how that relates to the "fight" for control?


Kinda my though too.
As I've heard it, in recent observations, the pilot could not override the planes automation system.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
e3k
Guru
Guru


Joined: 01 Oct 2007
Posts: 349
Location: Inner Space

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Boeing crashes... Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
"Airbus are shit" "Boeing are shit"

whole aironautic travel business is shit. you have to wait at line to be checked in. then you have to wait in line to be checked by x rays sonar and maybe a finger in your ass. then you wait until they let you in the plane. also you have to travel long distances to even get to the airport. i prefer train for shorter trips. much more comfortable.
_________________
((O.o))
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
patrix_neo
Guru
Guru


Joined: 08 Jan 2004
Posts: 515
Location: The Maldives

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Time to get paranoid.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Muso
l33t
l33t


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 968
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

patrix_neo wrote:
Time to get paranoid.


Related
_________________
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
patrix_neo
Guru
Guru


Joined: 08 Jan 2004
Posts: 515
Location: The Maldives

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
patrix_neo wrote:
Time to get paranoid.


Related


So, it's the water. I knew it. Never flourid in my system again. uhu! Not me, anymore. As long I've never been affected!

Oh, fk, that was a great one! I cannot stop open my mouth inhale-exhale out of laughter....thank you.
I am crying out of laughters....oh my god.
EDIT: Just a small addit crap. When you realise these people could be just normal people, you have a decent ammount of evidence to be paranoid about everything.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
patrix_neo
Guru
Guru


Joined: 08 Jan 2004
Posts: 515
Location: The Maldives

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, me thinking this was as if a bunch of CNN reporters, makes me scared. Where does the comedy end and where does the idiotics start,
I actually thought this was an actual report and conclusions of it. While reading some comments, I am sincerely hoping it was a comedy act.

I feel like sheldon cooper, just heard he's going to Switzerland and the LHC.

As an outsider, who can really tell anymore if it's an act or a propaganda/idiotic bunch of loons or just humor? I Knut.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum