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aidanjt
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
F-22 stealth jets got 587 enemy aircraft to back off in their first 'combat surge' over Syria


Soooo, the actually good jet that inspires genuine fear? Seems like it'd be much better value for money to pump the trillion dollars into it instead of the barrel of pork that starts flaking off radar absorbent paint the moment it picks up enough velocity to lift off the ground.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
F-22 stealth jets got 587 enemy aircraft to back off in their first 'combat surge' over Syria


Soooo, the actually good jet that inspires genuine fear? Seems like it'd be much better value for money to pump the trillion dollars into it instead of the barrel of pork that starts flaking off radar absorbent paint the moment it picks up enough velocity to lift off the ground.


That's a feature, specifically requested by the "Radar Absorbent Paint" lobby.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
pjp wrote:
By that measure, it has been a very long time since any new equipment has been so tested. Which makes that criticism less meaningful.

The opposition is unwilling to test.

F-22 stealth jets got 587 enemy aircraft to back off in their first 'combat surge' over Syria
I mis/didn't read that and though you were referencing another F-35 article. So I did a search to find out when the F-22 saw its first combat test and found articles similar to this one. I had no idea the F-22 hadn't yet been "combat tested." Hopefully the F-35 doesn't prove to be a weakness.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://youtu.be/4xJBvKJht78
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The cost and monoculture aspect of the F-35 make any problems that much more significant.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's the point of fancy attack aircraft if you can't fly them.

Quote:
Indian bombing inside Pakistani territory appears to have struck a mostly uninhabited forest and a farmer's wheat field.

Article suggest they missed their target (terrorist training facility) by about a kilometer. They hit nothing but dirt and trees, and injured one poor innocent farmer.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/02/indian-air-raid-site-casualties-mysterious-madrassa-190227183058957.html
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
The cost and monoculture aspect of the F-35 make any problems that much more significant.

.......why?

Last year a defect was found in the fuel lines. It was resolved.

And if a security vulnerability is found in one, all three variants can likely be corrected at once.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
pjp wrote:
The cost and monoculture aspect of the F-35 make any problems that much more significant.

.......why?

Last year a defect was found in the fuel lines. It was resolved.

And if a security vulnerability is found in one, all three variants can likely be corrected at once.
And if the wingbox is found to fatigue and fail prematurely grounding the aircraft then there are no aircraft available to fly the required missions until a new clean sheet replacement can be delivered. All three aircraft have been grounded frequently when critical design flaws have been found leaving a very noticeable lack of serviceable aircraft.

Making all 3 services use the same aircraft isn't saving any money. It is costing far more than it would have to deliver 3 different aircraft that actually met the needs of the 3 services. And there is no plan B if one of the vairents fails to preform its combat role adiquatly. That is why the F-16 was in development at the same time as the F-15. In case one failed the other could cover the gap. A monoculture is dangerous.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe I'm crazy, but to me it seems that having different aircraft for different missions makes sense. Reconnaissance has different needs from bombers which have different needs from interceptors.

(Obviously not referring to transport, helicopters, etc, etc).
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
Maybe I'm crazy, but to me it seems that having different aircraft for different missions makes sense. Reconnaissance has different needs from bombers which have different needs from interceptors.

The F-35 is consolidating the AV-8, F-18 and F-16. That's not as broad. Whether or not it replaces the A-10 has yet to be seen. It's gun capability leaves much to be desired, but its time on target is excellent.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
It's gun capability leaves much to be desired..


You misspelt 'completely useless'.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, you guys just really hate that plane. It's intriguing to watch.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Man, you guys just really hate that plane. It's intriguing to watch.


Hate is an attracting force. This is more pity.
It's trying to be too much for a rediculous cost
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Muso wrote:
Maybe I'm crazy, but to me it seems that having different aircraft for different missions makes sense. Reconnaissance has different needs from bombers which have different needs from interceptors.

The F-35 is consolidating the AV-8, F-18 and F-16. That's not as broad. Whether or not it replaces the A-10 has yet to be seen. It's gun capability leaves much to be desired, but its time on target is excellent.


-Harrier (AV-8) Low and slow close support. Maximum ordinance, loiter time, and armor for the pilot. Requires low wing loading for loiter times and bombing stability. Also requires long endurance to wait in theater.
-F-18 Supersonic air superiority interceptor. Primary mission is fleet defense. Secondary mission is as a bombing platform. Requires high wing loading for maneuverability and low drag. Relatively short legs. Cockpit protections not nearly as important
-F-16 Mid range multi-role fighter. Requires high wing loading for maneuverability and low drag. Again, short legs. Cockpit armor? Who are we kidding. Its not getting shot at, minimal.

Therefore the roles being consolidated are very broad and contradictory. On one hand you have missions requiring high wing loading and missions requiring low wing loading. You have missions requiring a ton of fuel capacity and missions requiring that weight be used for ordinance. Then the difference in armor requirements.

You cannot role these into one aircraft successfully. Basic engineering and the Military brass was telling congress that, but the penny pushers insisted that it be done their way. Oh, and not to forget ridiculously expensive. The result is an aircraft that from what I understand is universally disliked by the maintenance crews and pilots. I haven't talked to too many of them but the ones I have all share this opinion.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
...

Also intriguing.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
pjp wrote:
The cost and monoculture aspect of the F-35 make any problems that much more significant.

.......why?

Last year a defect was found in the fuel lines. It was resolved.

And if a security vulnerability is found in one, all three variants can likely be corrected at once.
I don't understand your question. "Why" if the entire fleet is inoperable due to an issue that drastically impacts mission readiness, or "why" something else?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And the hits keep rolling in: Some F-35s Could Become Unflyable by 2026
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
And the hits keep rolling in: Some F-35s Could Become Unflyable by 2026

An addendum to the article seems to suggest that the situation is well under control.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
An addendum to the article seems to suggest that the situation is well under control.

Somehow I doubt some chewing gum and gaffer tape is going to fix a fundamental structural weakness in the fuselage. Those aircraft aren't going to be pulling heavy duty outside of dire emergency situations.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
An addendum to the article seems to suggest that the situation is well under control.

Somehow I doubt some chewing gum and gaffer tape is going to fix a fundamental structural weakness in the fuselage. Those aircraft aren't going to be pulling heavy duty outside of dire emergency situations.

Chewing gum and gaffer tape?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys are all wrong.

Manned fighters are so last millennium. You are dinosaurs. Some of you are actually part of the dinosaur military industrial complex players who have too big of a stake in aircraft to let go.

Let go. Decisions made now about major weapon systems don't become physical reality for a decade or more. This particular fighter system needs to be improved. There is no point in debating philosophy about monoculture fighter vs mission-specific fighter programs, because there should never be another manned fighter program. You just need to let go.

You're just like the cavalry officers who were still debating horse breeding and riding tack as mechanized weapons were rolling across trenches in World War I.

The whole concept of the manned fighter needs to be shut down going forward, even if it is a religion to self-important senior Air Force jackasses whose whole self-identify is based on the idea, and even if we do have a vast ecosystem currently pissing hundreds of billions of dollars a year globally into the mouths of tens of millions of non-value-producing human parasites.

You need to let go and talk about important questions like what's the right mix of large drones that blow up entire weapon systems vs. swarms of tiny insect-size drones that selectively wipe out human operators and decision-makers.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
There is no point in debating philosophy about monoculture fighter vs mission-specific fighter programs
Since you used the word monoculture, I'll clarify that I was referring to systems, not philosophy. If you have one vulnerable system, then that system can be completely eliminated by the same problem. And this is true for any future, unmanned system as well.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Bones McCracker wrote:
There is no point in debating philosophy about monoculture fighter vs mission-specific fighter programs
Since you used the word monoculture, I'll clarify that I was referring to systems, not philosophy. If you have one vulnerable system, then that system can be completely eliminated by the same problem. And this is true for any future, unmanned system as well.

I knew exactly what you meant. Agree it's true of any future unmanned systems, but I think the rationale for it is weakened.

Edit: and you're still a bunch of dinosaurs. Probably like thrmonuclear ICBMs too
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It didn't seem like you understood what I meant because it was not my intention to comment on or advocate for or against "mission-specific programs."
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
It didn't seem like you understood what I meant because it was not my intention to comment on or advocate for or against "mission-specific programs."

It's possible I wasn't aiming at you and you just got peppered by stray pellets.
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