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tld
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
Building LLVM just to click a button instead of using tab completion? No thanks.
I just recently realized that I could get rid of LLVM on my systems...good riddance to that. Don't get me started on rust. Just what I want...compiling the development tool from hell designed by people who can't write a decent browser.

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proteusx
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A Chinless tub of lard with obligatory greasy ponytail, touting systemd.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

proteusx wrote:
A Chinless tub of lard with obligatory greasy ponytail, touting systemd.

The "tragedy of systemd" is that it exists.

Ant P. wrote:
Calling it a “manager” is very fitting - it sits there looking pretty, performing no useful work and wasting resources.

Your work experience must mirror mine!

BTW, I see I have user directories called "hal" I assume I can delete them. IIRC that was another redHat attempt to ape Windoze.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not rename systemd to systemp – system's pest. It does not only poison millions of Linux PCs, but also the community's/people's minds and interaction towards each other.Leave alone the impertinent manner of its creator.

As a German I am normally proud of 'Made in Germany', but systemdp is a blatant piece of over-engineering. Full stop.

Alongside Gentoo I use PCLinuxOS when I need a fast install 'out of the box' or for people who just want to use their computer. Even if you do not agree with everything they do (ie. pinging Google to see if network is up), there have always been alternatives or workarounds so far.

Systemd in contrast serves you a bewitched bubbling soup you have to eat. Urgh!
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greasy ponytail says: "Binary Logs are not a bad thing". They provide, he says, "Better Log/Event/Audit Handling", but he does not say how.
Comments are disabled, of course.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Logging is logging, whether binary or text. Binary is neither better or worse for logging. Now getting the binary data in readable format is another matter.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/apckxf/a_g_users_opinion_on_systemd/
Quote:

Copypasted from the 4chan thread:

The funny thing is, systemd's design would anger probably at least 95% of GNU/Linux users (probably including you too) IF it was anything but the init system.

I know some of you think the "Unix Way" is just a meme, but it's actually the reason you can do shit like pipe terminal commands into each other. It's THE reason you have components you can wrap your brain around which can all be pieced together and managed in a simple and flexible way. That's what the Unix Way does.

You want another great example of the Unix Way? Ironically systemd is a GREAT example of the Unix Way. Not in its design though, but in its mere existence.

Have you ever realized how absolutely amazing it is that a new piece of software as fundamental as PID 1 could be swapped out in all of our major distros (even "stable" ones) in only a few years time?

The significance of that cannot be overstated. And yet, although systemd owes its success to the Unix Way which made it so easy for them to step in, it undermines the Unix Way in its own design.

Do you think 20yrs from now when systemd is old and busted that it will be so easy to swap it out with something better? Well not only is the scope of this thing which needs to be replaced now massive compared to what it used to be, but you'd also probably have to rewrite a lot of other software, or beg the developers to change their dependencies. It doesn't matter if systemd works. You didn't start using GNU/Linux because it "works" did you? You started using it because it allowed you to be the master of how your data flows, and it allowed you to combine things in ways nobody else on GNU/Linux was doing to get exactly what you want.

Quit being led astray by the "just works" argument when it comes to systemd just because init systems aren't something you care to play around with and customize all that much. That shouldn't matter, and we should stick to the tried and true design principles that have served us so well all these years.


When 4chan makes sense
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If sysd had stayed with just being an init system, there wouldn't be near as much furor over it.

But the implementation that we are stuck with is a (poor) attempt to mimic what windows did when it transitioned from a gui over dos, to what it is now.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Logging is logging, whether binary or text. Binary is neither better or worse for logging. Now getting the binary data in readable format is another matter.


U can get the best of both worlds. I do. I keep old syslogs since 2007. Didn't matter we migrated to journald. And journald has 3 options as far as backing goes and as I am aware off. One permanent that keeps all logs, which I don't like. One called volatile that only keeps the logs from current boot, and one called none which should be obvious what it does. I love the volatile one. Because journalctl in itself is a wonderful tool. The syslog files, such as they are, are large files. with text. journalctl on the other hand, is a command that understand time, service, and many more things that come with progress.

Naib wrote:
When 4chan makes sense


no they don't. unics died a long time ago. there is no "old way". people who say that don't know jack about how much things moved forward in the past 70 years. you don't get to hold anyone hostage. nobody does. microsoft couldn't hold progress still. what makes you think old unix guys will?

and finally

Anon-E-moose wrote:
If sysd had stayed with just being an init system, there wouldn't be near as much furor over it.

But the implementation that we are stuck with is a (poor) attempt to mimic what windows did when it transitioned from a gui over dos, to what it is now.



7 posts up there's a guy belittleing another guy holding a talk. I actually listened to that talk. The supposed "greasy ponytail, chinless tub of lard" is a bsd developer. And he was talking about systemd from the point of view of upstart and apple and bsd. and it was actually a nice talk.

My point of view has always been, systemd is not perfect. lets learn it and improve it because is already better than openrc. and still, if you know openrc, you can do that. i can do that. i know it can be done. it's not hard to use openrc init even if you compile everything with systemd. or dont compile everything with systemd. i cannot say this enough. if you know openrc, you simply do openrc. systemd simply isnt a nuisance as some describe it. Also you need to learn both. And finally when people dont participate by reporting bugs and helping (point 1) or by learning to avoid the problem (point2) and by embracing the problem (point 3) i kinda shrug... post stuff like this.

from outside looking in, systemd did exactly what it set out to do. and from a system engineer perspective, pretty good. but again, outside looking in, that bsd devel seem to be of the same mindset. "why are we bsd devels lol@linux. we dont have what they do."

from inside looking in, I knew since E17, they were looking for a way to allow the WM that was run as a user to interact with hardware in userspace. without root. basically what windows introduced at winvista i think. this is an administrative task... are you sure you want to... that... this was before kernel 2.3. before the dynamic /dev. before everything you think is "unix the old way". it's finally here. progress.

One last point. I was recently made aware about the confirmation bias. It's sort of a more fancy echo chamber. Might want to look that up. And also, another point I made before, a lot of people take their que from gentoo and a lot of people just blindly say systemd sux. I read on gentoo forums. But does it really. And any one of you really want to be quoted on that? Just wondering. Could we put this to rest please?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
no they don't. unics died a long time ago. there is no "old way". people who say that don't know jack about how much things moved forward in the past 70 years. you don't get to hold anyone hostage. nobody does. microsoft couldn't hold progress still. what makes you think old unix guys will?
The same apples to current people of any age who are trying to restrict Linux to the "systemd way".

axl wrote:
One last point. I was recently made aware about the confirmation bias. It's sort of a more fancy echo chamber. Might want to look that up. And also, another point I made before, ...
The same applies to you and your repeated rants.

axl wrote:
Could we put this to rest please?
Oh please do so! Lead the way!
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

roki942 wrote:
The same apples to current people of any age who are trying to restrict Linux to the "systemd way".


if there are people who do that... who are they... ohhh the WM developers.

Quote:
The same applies to you and your repeated rants.


some things are understood slowly. I feel like berry white should be playing.

You people talk to me like I am the systemd itself. I just adapted. and further more I carry this whole discussion with care for my gentoo brothers that seem to be afflicted by a disease that I seem to be immune to so... it's complicated.

but i still think, competence beats all.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:


Naib wrote:
When 4chan makes sense


no they don't. unics died a long time ago. there is no "old way". people who say that don't know jack about how much things moved forward in the past 70 years. you don't get to hold anyone hostage. nobody does. microsoft couldn't hold progress still. what makes you think old unix guys will?
Actually this post did... it is embodying why POSIX advocates a lot of what POSIX mandates.
Simple tools that do their job which when combined form a more complete system. I can switch cron, logger whenever I choose because of how they work independently and with others.
Systemd works with systemd as it is not modular, it is monolithic and that post was completely right IF something needs to replace systemd (security concerns, architectural concerns, no longer supported), it will be beyond painful to unstitch. Look at windows.h and windows applications.

and I see you bought into an explanation as to why UNIX is UNIX and not UNICS ...
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
axl wrote:


Naib wrote:
When 4chan makes sense


no they don't. unics died a long time ago. there is no "old way". people who say that don't know jack about how much things moved forward in the past 70 years. you don't get to hold anyone hostage. nobody does. microsoft couldn't hold progress still. what makes you think old unix guys will?
Actually this post did... it is embodying why POSIX advocates a lot of what POSIX mandates.
Simple tools that do their job which when combined form a more complete system. I can switch cron, logger whenever I choose because of how they work independently and with others.
Systemd works with systemd as it is not modular, it is monolithic and that post was completely right IF something needs to replace systemd (security concerns, architectural concerns, no longer supported), it will be beyond painful to unstitch. Look at windows.h and windows applications.

and I see you bought into an explanation as to why UNIX is UNIX and not UNICS ...



for goodness sake ... nobody ever heard of the init parameter? i mean... it could be bash. or this script i made.

how is posix in this? its not. posix mandates a lot of things, but not this.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

philosophically unix is not unics, because unix is unix. same way we refer to linux as linux, not linucs.

all in all, look, you can berate me all you want. in the end, I think linux should be allowed to grow. learn from siblings. adapt. I don't want linux to be unics. I want it to be linux. a fast, ever moving child.

when I think of linux... this is what i think of:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7dTjpvakmA

Honestly, as an old man, i often dont like it. Some people said i repeat old things. OK. 1 for 1. "you need to learn both" but at the same time at my current job i'm learning elasticsearch. and I absolutely hate it. I can't tell my boss that. i smile... and try to understand it... but i hate it.

none of you hate systemd as much as i hate elasticshit.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

proteusx wrote:
A Chinless tub of lard with obligatory greasy ponytail, touting systemd.
What a joke. That was also reported here:

https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=19/02/07/2252202

Clearly the overwhelming opinion there is that the whole thing was a puff piece that drags out the same old tired pro-systemd myths that were debunked in 2014 or before. What a load of shit. Seems fitting that our resident systemd troll had to join in...I refuse to feed...

Tom
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

do you feel comfortable in an echo chamber? how much? especially since I'm here to ruin it for you? how would it have been if I weren't here? would have been like honey and no worries?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

proteusx wrote:
A Chinless tub of lard with obligatory greasy ponytail, touting systemd.

"No one needed to send death threats to Lennart Poettering over a piece of software"
Thanks for the input BSD user.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ralphred wrote:
"No one needed to send death threats to Lennart Poettering over a piece of software"
Thanks for the input BSD user.

I doubt very much that "death threats" were ever made.

I wondered why "Contempt Is Not Cool".
Presumably it all depends on what one means by "cool".
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
Honestly, as an old man,

Ok, now I finally understand ...... midlife crisis ...... and instead of a sports car and a 18 year old girlfriend ..... it's systemd.
You have my sympathy.

Me .... I'll continue using my free time to paint, which adds value to my life .... insteading of wasting it learning systemd as you feel you have the right to demand of me and others ....
as it wouldn't enhance my life in any way.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

roki942 wrote:
axl wrote:
Honestly, as an old man,

Ok, now I finally understand ...... midlife crisis ...... and instead of a sports car and a 18 year old girlfriend ..... it's systemd.
You have my sympathy.

Me .... I'll continue using my free time to paint, which adds value to my life .... insteading of wasting it learning systemd as you feel you have the right to demand of me and others ....
as it wouldn't enhance my life in any way.


++
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

proteusx wrote:
I wondered why "Contempt Is Not Cool".
Presumably it all depends on what one means by "cool".

I was under the impression "Contempt" was the peer QA process used to move code from staging to beta.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You lot are pretty pathetic. Guy makes SOME valid points and people dismiss him as a chinless tub of lard. That looks like some pretty fragile beliefs being held onto that, when challenged, results in a complete devolution of discourse and right into childish namecalling.

The points I disagree with from the guy are the death threats and abuse, I seriously wonder if Lennart really did get any death threats, but the way you people behave when valid points are brought up is pretty damning. Far be it that someone looks at some character flaw of your own and resorts to vituperation and vicious vitriol in a desperate attempt to invalidate the points you make.

That's just pathetic, and on that notion you can take your idiotic and reprehensible opinions and stuff them right up your damned asses.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread is going the way of all but one other systemd thread on the forums.
Its descending into pantomime and farce. That makes it a candidate for locking.

Agreeing to disagree is fine. Name calling is not.


shadywack,

If you want to post ASCII, which is discouraged by the way, its a lot easier if you use the monospace font provided by code tags,
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shadywack wrote:
vituperation and vicious vitriol

Impressive alliteration.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
This thread is going the way of all but one other systemd thread on the forums.
Its descending into pantomime and farce. That makes it a candidate for locking.

Agreeing to disagree is fine. Name calling is not.


I agree name calling is not cool.

It's possible that the only reason axl is here is to get the thread locked.
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