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Naib
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/01/10/systemd_bugs_qualys/
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tld
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/01/10/systemd_bugs_qualys/
Quote:
While systemd isn't universally beloved in the Linux community, Graham sees nothing unusual about the presence of the three flaws in the software. "The noteworthiness to me is that it is very commonly found in most major distributions," he said.
So because software can have bugs, it means every dumb-ass mistake they make is OK...got it. Never mind how he glosses over the fact that all of these bugs are the result of their shit-for-brains systemd-journald and non-text logs, that nobody with two brain cells to rub together wants in the first place. There's a special place for these idiots and it's called Microsoft.

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saellaven
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meanwhile, phoronix, shill central for systemd, hasn't mentioned it at all...
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tld wrote:
Naib wrote:
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/01/10/systemd_bugs_qualys/
Quote:
While systemd isn't universally beloved in the Linux community, Graham sees nothing unusual about the presence of the three flaws in the software. "The noteworthiness to me is that it is very commonly found in most major distributions," he said.
So because software can have bugs, it means every dumb-ass mistake they make is OK...got it. Never mind how he glosses over the fact that all of these bugs are the result of their shit-for-brains systemd-journald and non-text logs, that nobody with two brain cells to rub together wants in the first place.
Still I am going to see whether those have any impact on elogind. There are common tools and basic functions used everywhere. If any of those functions I use, too, is involved, the next time could get messy.
sigh... I better go and have a look at the PR they merged this morning into v239-stable. (https://github.com/systemd/systemd-stable/pull/15)

tld wrote:
There's a special place for these idiots and it's called Microsoft.
Well, the "Windows Event Log" you need the "Windows Event Viewer" for, makes perfect sense, as those are generated all over the place with tons of data you want to be able to effectively filter in a GUI world.
The binary journald, running on a system where /var/log is a central place, with dmesg and /var/log/{messages,system} being common collections, and both users and sysops being used to using text consoles, makes absolutely no sense at all.

So I would daresay that not even Microsoft deserves "these idiots"... :lol:
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Well, the "Windows Event Log" you need the "Windows Event Viewer" for, makes perfect sense, as those are generated all over the place with tons of data you want to be able to effectively filter in a GUI world.
Really? In what universe? The Windows event log and event viewer are a fucking nightmare. I'll take a world where everything writes to text logs any day. I can filter with commands that have been around for over 40 years.

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steve_v
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tld wrote:
The Windows event log and event viewer are a fucking nightmare.
As someone who has to deal with this abomination from time to time, I heartily agree.

The binary logging insanity is one of the main reasons I'm not interested in running systemd... That and the kitchen-sink design, the "I know best so fuck off" attitude of the devs, not to mention the "modular, so long as you don't try to use components individually" bullshit.


Yamakuzure wrote:
you want to be able to effectively filter in a GUI world
Whatever this "GUI world" thing is, I don't want it and I don't need it.
The CLI tools we have for working with plain-text, logs or otherwise, work great. They work great in an xterm too, and that's GUI enough for me.

Binary, non portable, non human-readable logs are an idiotic idea, regardless of where they are kept. Plaintext can be filtered by a GUI anyway, if you want that click-and-drool poison.

Please point out some comparable privilege escalation bugs in sysv or openrc. If we include "log viewers", how about some in grep? awk? No? I wonder why...

We have a wheel, it works perfectly well, leave it alone.
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tld
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steve_v wrote:
Please point out some comparable privilege escalation bugs in sysv or openrc. If we include "log viewers", how about some in grep? awk? No? I wonder why...

We have a wheel, it works perfectly well, leave it alone.
+1000 to all this. I've always wondered what someone would need to do to look at systemd logs using a rescue CD or the like. I'm assuming you'd have to a) have a rescue CD that included the journalctl bullshit and b) figure out exactly where the logs are stored and how to override journalctl's default path with one you've mounted from the recovery, and c) hope the crash, or whatever happened didn't irreparably corrupt the log database and finally d) wrestle with whatever journald's horrible syntax is...something nobody should need to know to administer a Linux system.

I mean holy shit. This is why I shouldn't need anything but a file system and text tools for all this. This is all related to something I've mentioned many times: That is the fact that the systemd design, much like Windows, seems to have come from a mindset where nothing simple, no matter how elegantly it might work, can ever be good enough...ever. If it isn't hopelessly obfuscated in layers of unnecessary XML and who knows what, there must be something wrong with it. They seem to have a life threatening allergy to the concept of simple and elegant.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tld wrote:
They seem to have a life threatening allergy to the concept of simple and elegant.

I sense a commercial interest here. Keeping it complicated means you need to hire the experts who know how to read and fix your system. If just any one could, how would Red Hat get revenue?
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Hu
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Windows Event Viewer is a step up over letting every application have its own "log view" mode where you can see log entries and, if the developer was very forward thinking, copy them to a clipboard or write them to a file. Windows Event Viewer forces a small level of standardization in presentation and storage of the data. It is still a step (or more) below writing the logs in a way that they can be easily processed with text analysis tools.
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steve_v
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tld wrote:
I've always wondered what someone would need to do to look at systemd logs using a rescue CD or the like.
And Dog forbid you need to look at logs on another OS. But then it does appear that the systemd crowd has thrown any kind of cross-platform or POSIX compatibility out the window, so why not standard log formats too, right?

tld wrote:
If it isn't hopelessly obfuscated in layers of unnecessary XML and who knows what, there must be something wrong with it.
The simple, elegant nature of plaintext configuration and scripting is one of the things I love about GNU/Linux, and this proliferation of machine-centric configuration files and general trend toward over-engineering pisses me off no end. It's the main reason I hate working with Windows.


hu wrote:
Windows Event Viewer is a step up over letting every application have its own "log view" mode
Sure, a centralised logging system is a fine idea, we've had this in Linux/Unix for forever.
My problem with event viewer (and systemd) is that the format is not human-readable or portable, and it requires specialised tools to work with.

Tony0945 wrote:
I sense a commercial interest here. Keeping it complicated means you need to hire the experts who know how to read and fix your system. If just any one could, how would Red Hat get revenue?
Without direct evidence, that's a little too tinfoil hat for me. But I do have the nagging feeling that systemd (and the recent drive to "standardise" GNUI/Linux in general) was the child of commercial, non-free interests.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so this is still an issue. it's just... so many cpu cycles wasted on nothing.

LEARN THE DAMN NEW INIT SYSTEM AND STOP MAKING EXCUSES.

sorry. been holding that in since the last time I was here. in fact I'm amazed how much time elapsed and still, one of the first 10 issues on the forums is always a variation of this. years gone by. people still hold ignorance as a virtue. shame on you. shame on you.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

what? you expect in the next few years we gonna magically go back to openrc? think years in front. at one point, every single one of you will have to come to grips with systemd. I'm sorry. if not you, your son or daughter. :P
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
LEARN THE DAMN NEW INIT SYSTEM AND STOP MAKING EXCUSES.
I have learned systemd, on Debian. I fucking hated every minute of it, because it's a steaming pile of shit I don't need or want.
I have used systemd extensively, on Debian, and it was fucking painful. I waited for it to mature, to see if it improved. It did not.
If, "years in front", Gentoo succumbs to this madness I will simply move to FreeBSD.

axl wrote:
people still hold ignorance as a virtue
Open-mindedness and freedom are virtues. Considering alternatives and making an informed choice as to which software to use is rather the opposite of ignorance.

axl wrote:
you expect in the next few years we gonna magically go back to openrc?
Back to? What are you on about? OpenRC is still the default on Gentoo, long may it remain so.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
so this is still an issue. it's just... so many cpu cycles wasted on nothing.

LEARN THE DAMN NEW INIT SYSTEM AND STOP MAKING EXCUSES.

sorry. been holding that in since the last time I was here. in fact I'm amazed how much time elapsed and still, one of the first 10 issues on the forums is always a variation of this. years gone by. people still hold ignorance as a virtue. shame on you. shame on you.
Boring ... boring ... boring ....Zzzz
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
so this is still an issue. it's just... so many cpu cycles wasted on nothing.

LEARN THE DAMN NEW INIT SYSTEM AND STOP MAKING EXCUSES.

sorry. been holding that in since the last time I was here. in fact I'm amazed how much time elapsed and still, one of the first 10 issues on the forums is always a variation of this. years gone by. people still hold ignorance as a virtue. shame on you. shame on you.
Below is only the first page of results of your post activity.

Given that this thread was the first place you posted after almost 5 months of inactivity, you chose an interesting approach to "engaging" with others on the subject. How does that compare against your standards of virtue and honor?

Quote:
PostForum: Gentoo Chat Posted: 2019.Jan.12, 19:45 (Sat) Subject: systemd discussion: agree to disagree
PostForum: Gentoo Chat Posted: 2019.Jan.12, 19:42 (Sat) Subject: systemd discussion: agree to disagree
PostForum: Installing Gentoo Posted: 2018.Aug.22, 22:04 (Wed) Subject: Computer refuses to boot Gentoo
PostForum: Installing Gentoo Posted: 2018.Aug.21, 14:41 (Tue) Subject: Computer refuses to boot Gentoo
PostForum: Gentoo Chat Posted: 2018.Aug.20, 14:03 (Mon) Subject: systemd discussion: agree to disagree
PostForum: Gentoo Chat Posted: 2018.Aug.20, 13:59 (Mon) Subject: systemd discussion: agree to disagree
PostForum: Gentoo Chat Posted: 2018.Aug.20, 13:38 (Mon) Subject: systemd discussion: agree to disagree
PostForum: Gentoo Chat Posted: 2018.Aug.20, 13:11 (Mon) Subject: systemd discussion: agree to disagree
PostForum: Gentoo Chat Posted: 2018.Aug.20, 12:33 (Mon) Subject: systemd discussion: agree to disagree
PostForum: Gentoo Chat Posted: 2018.Aug.20, 12:18 (Mon) Subject: systemd discussion: agree to disagree
PostForum: Gentoo Chat Posted: 2018.Aug.20, 12:08 (Mon) Subject: systemd discussion: agree to disagree
PostForum: Gentoo Chat Posted: 2018.Aug.20, 12:03 (Mon) Subject: systemd discussion: agree to disagree
PostForum: Installing Gentoo Posted: 2018.Aug.20, 11:52 (Mon) Subject: Computer refuses to boot Gentoo
PostForum: Gentoo Chat Posted: 2018.Aug.20, 11:48 (Mon) Subject: systemd discussion: agree to disagree
PostForum: Gentoo Chat Posted: 2018.Aug.20, 11:36 (Mon) Subject: systemd discussion: agree to disagree
PostForum: Gentoo Chat Posted: 2018.Aug.19, 13:47 (Sun) Subject: systemd discussion: agree to disagree
PostForum: Gentoo Chat Posted: 2018.Aug.19, 13:07 (Sun) Subject: systemd discussion: agree to disagree
PostForum: Gentoo Chat Posted: 2018.Aug.19, 12:54 (Sun) Subject: systemd discussion: agree to disagree
PostForum: Gentoo Chat Posted: 2018.Aug.18, 15:49 (Sat) Subject: systemd discussion: agree to disagree
PostForum: Gentoo Chat Posted: 2018.Aug.18, 15:10 (Sat) Subject: systemd discussion: agree to disagree
PostForum: Gentoo Chat Posted: 2018.Aug.18, 14:42 (Sat) Subject: systemd discussion: agree to disagree
PostForum: Gentoo Chat Posted: 2018.Aug.18, 14:30 (Sat) Subject: systemd discussion: agree to disagree
PostForum: Installing Gentoo Posted: 2018.Aug.18, 14:15 (Sat) Subject: Computer refuses to boot Gentoo
PostForum: Installing Gentoo Posted: 2018.Aug.18, 14:10 (Sat) Subject: Computer refuses to boot Gentoo
PostForum: Gentoo Chat Posted: 2018.Aug.18, 14:00 (Sat) Subject: systemd discussion: agree to disagree

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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
what? you expect in the next few years we gonna magically go back to openrc? think years in front. at one point, every single one of you will have to come to grips with systemd. I'm sorry. if not you, your son or daughter. :P

I'll see to it that both perish in favour of good engineering like s6.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
LEARN THE DAMN NEW INIT SYSTEM AND STOP MAKING EXCUSES.

I tried Systemd when it was first offered in portage. I was primarily interested in the promised faster start-up time.
I quickly dropped it (like the proverbial bag of wet shite) when I realized that binary logging was mandatory.
Binary logs are a daft idea.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
so this is still an issue. it's just... so many cpu cycles wasted on nothing.

LEARN THE DAMN NEW INIT SYSTEM AND STOP MAKING EXCUSES.

sorry. been holding that in since the last time I was here. in fact I'm amazed how much time elapsed and still, one of the first 10 issues on the forums is always a variation of this. years gone by. people still hold ignorance as a virtue. shame on you. shame on you.


Why should I?

I'll bet you're using the WRONG text editor. If you use vi, I can say to you, LEARN THE DAMN EMACS AND STOP MAKING EXCUSES! If you use emacs, I can say to you, "LEARN THE DAMN VI AND STOP MAKING EXCUSES.

You're not here to live up to my software expectations, and I'm not here to live up to yours.

I also believe that there is an archive of zero-days on systemd, being hoarded against the day of need. Sure it's had security issues, but nothing really deep yet, and it would be truly amazing that some of those don't exist, given the nature of the ones that have been found so far.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
blah, blah, blah


Oh lord *facepalm* the troll is back
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
axl wrote:
blah, blah, blah


Oh lord *facepalm* the troll is back
thing is ... I think he believes what he says. Its like followers of scientology. Its like the gospel according to St Pottering
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

proteusx wrote:
axl wrote:
LEARN THE DAMN NEW INIT SYSTEM AND STOP MAKING EXCUSES.

I tried Systemd when it was first offered in portage. I was primarily interested in the promised faster start-up time.
I quickly dropped it (like the proverbial bag of wet shite) when I realized that binary logging was mandatory.
Binary logs are a daft idea.

It's worth pointing out (again) that Fedora's “boot an eeePC 701 to desktop in 5 seconds” publicity stunt was done using plain sysvinit and their ad-hoc LSB rc scripts. The wins there came from recognising the distro was full of useless crapware set to autorun by default and trimming it down. Gentoo doesn't suffer that problem, so systemd has no chance to improve on it.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Given that this thread was the first place you posted after almost 5 months of inactivity, you chose an interesting approach to "engaging" with others on the subject. How does that compare against your standards of virtue and honor?


to be fair I left unhappy because of this. and returned to see how things fare... and this thread was on the first page. and also towards my old stint on these here forums, I lost interest with gentoo in general and became consumed, again, by the systemd issue. I really dont know why you throw that in my face. I will be leaving again pretty soon. I just briefly returned to offer some apologies if required.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
axl wrote:
what? you expect in the next few years we gonna magically go back to openrc? think years in front. at one point, every single one of you will have to come to grips with systemd. I'm sorry. if not you, your son or daughter. :P

I'll see to it that both perish in favour of good engineering like s6.


thanks ant. i'll have a look at s6.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steve_v wrote:
axl wrote:
LEARN THE DAMN NEW INIT SYSTEM AND STOP MAKING EXCUSES.
I have learned systemd, on Debian. I fucking hated every minute of it, because it's a steaming pile of shit I don't need or want.
I have used systemd extensively, on Debian, and it was fucking painful. I waited for it to mature, to see if it improved. It did not.
If, "years in front", Gentoo succumbs to this madness I will simply move to FreeBSD.

axl wrote:
people still hold ignorance as a virtue
Open-mindedness and freedom are virtues. Considering alternatives and making an informed choice as to which software to use is rather the opposite of ignorance.

axl wrote:
you expect in the next few years we gonna magically go back to openrc?
Back to? What are you on about? OpenRC is still the default on Gentoo, long may it remain so.


I guess it depends what you mean by default. they do have openrc/systemd stage3 images. I can't decide which is default, but if you think the openrc one is default... fine. let's just go along with it.

My point, again, is that is a small step to climb. It can't be that bad. People, well, some people, make up systemd to be the worst possible thing. Worse than windows. Worse than the Titanic sinking. It's just a service file. a target file. a socket file. honestly, figuring out systemd is no big deal. No great science.

On the other hand, the more time passes, the more I am convinced of the fact that it's not systemd's fault. It doesn't happen often to veterans, but it does happen. It's like the petrol guys that hate electric cars. Or the guys that prefer MJ to Lebron. I'm with you on both counts. The more time passes, I am more convinced this is an emotional issue above all else. It's not practical. It's not competent. When you have the C source code in GPL, it's not a practical/competence issue. It's an emotional issue. And it's ok. People are allowed to be emotional.

Again, I mentioned this before in my previous stint, it bothers me that gentoo got this openrc "stick it to the illuminati" kinda reputation. which is stupid. on so many levels. I'm too lazy to type more on this point, but some of the stupidity out there is really triggering.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
axl wrote:
so this is still an issue. it's just... so many cpu cycles wasted on nothing.

LEARN THE DAMN NEW INIT SYSTEM AND STOP MAKING EXCUSES.

sorry. been holding that in since the last time I was here. in fact I'm amazed how much time elapsed and still, one of the first 10 issues on the forums is always a variation of this. years gone by. people still hold ignorance as a virtue. shame on you. shame on you.


Why should I?

I'll bet you're using the WRONG text editor. If you use vi, I can say to you, LEARN THE DAMN EMACS AND STOP MAKING EXCUSES! If you use emacs, I can say to you, "LEARN THE DAMN VI AND STOP MAKING EXCUSES.

You're not here to live up to my software expectations, and I'm not here to live up to yours.

I also believe that there is an archive of zero-days on systemd, being hoarded against the day of need. Sure it's had security issues, but nothing really deep yet, and it would be truly amazing that some of those don't exist, given the nature of the ones that have been found so far.


u missed the point. I can use both. can u?

you see, this is one of my points. I'm a professional. I cannot ask my clients to switch because i don't like one or the other. I have to adapt. learn both. i cannot go to a job interview and tell my prospected boss I don't morally agree with one or the other. If I want to get hired, I'll have to learn both.
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