View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
lord_khelben n00b
Joined: 22 Jan 2017 Posts: 6
|
Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
Jaglover wrote: | Yeah, but they still have PA as a part of installation. Slack is not Gentoo, you can't turn parts you don't want off that easy. They integrated PA because of bluez5 had PA as hard dependency. |
If you run -current, there are also pure-alsa versions of packages for some time now. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bghoons n00b
Joined: 04 May 2015 Posts: 47 Location: USA
|
Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: Leaving Gentoo for Arch |
|
|
ayeyes wrote: | [Moderator edit: Changed title to try to avoid disturbing readers. Original title was Going to die this night. -Hu]
By my own hand. Running Arch now... Gentoo is great, if one doesn't have OCD that's all I have can say about that. Good bye! |
This verse comes to mind:
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us:
but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. --1 John 2:19
The great thing about Linux is that there are versions to suit just about anyone's differing tastes.
Please tell us in a few months how much greener the grass is over there.
Gentoo ~ The Future Is Just A Compile Away |
|
Back to top |
|
|
pjp Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002 Posts: 20067
|
Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Muso wrote: | Anon-E-moose wrote: | Good luck.
Gentoo isn't for everyone, it does have a (sometimes steep) learning curve. |
Very much this. It takes quite a bit of reading and google-fu to get comfortable with it. | Has it gotten more complicated to start with? I've never understood the perception that it is difficult or takes a long time to learn. I would say that the first install takes more patience and actual reading, but I found it to be pretty easy. And that was when stage1 was the standard starting point.
The only "concern" I have is that every now and again I stumble upon something that changed years ago, but the old way was still working. I'm hoping I don't get bit by something. _________________ Quis separabit? Quo animo? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Anon-E-moose Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008 Posts: 6098 Location: Dallas area
|
Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I remember when gentoo (don't remember what the original name was) was starting up, downloading source over a modem, compiling on slow, single processor machine.
Of course I was used to rolling my own anyway, as I had converted early on from RH (when they only sold cd's) to a LFS type system.
So over time it's gotten easier, the best part (IMO) is the package manager makes it relatively easy to create ebuild and keeps track of files to remove when you uninstall or upgrade a package. _________________ PRIME x570-pro, 3700x, 6.1 zen kernel
gcc 13, profile 17.0 (custom bare multilib), openrc, wayland |
|
Back to top |
|
|
duane Apprentice
Joined: 03 Jun 2002 Posts: 193 Location: Oklahoma City
|
Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well, the arch pkgbuilds are a lot easier for me to follow than ebuilds. Of course they don't have to do as much.
And the last time I had to cross compile something for windows, I wasted days trying unsuccessfully to set it up on gentoo. It took me five minutes with arch, and it "just worked". I even ended up copying the arch cross compiling directories to gentoo rather than go back and figure out what went wrong. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Tony0945 Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006 Posts: 5127 Location: Illinois, USA
|
Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
pjp wrote: | The only "concern" I have is that every now and again I stumble upon something that changed years ago, but the old way was still working. I'm hoping I don't get bit by something. |
I'm sure you have some sort of software engineering background like me. That made Gentoo exciting and understandable. People coming from Windows or Ubunto or RedHat and are non-technical have a much steeper learning curve and usually don't really want to make choices. They don't want to modify their engine; they just want to drive their car or preferably have someone drive it for them.
In a real sense, by making those initial choices you are designing your personal system, not just deciding what optional packages to install.
There are those who think there should be one monolithic system with your only major choice being being do you want KDE or Gnome.
This is akin to "do you want WinMe or Win2000?" which became just "do you want Win10 or Win10"?
Chiefly, the reason I stick with Gentoo is that I like to tinker with my boxes. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Muso Veteran
Joined: 22 Oct 2002 Posts: 1052 Location: The Holy city of Honolulu
|
Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
pjp wrote: | Has it gotten more complicated to start with? I've never understood the perception that it is difficult or takes a long time to learn. I would say that the first install takes more patience and actual reading, but I found it to be pretty easy. And that was when stage1 was the standard starting point.
The only "concern" I have is that every now and again I stumble upon something that changed years ago, but the old way was still working. I'm hoping I don't get bit by something. |
There are more choices and options when installing now. The big one back in the old days was LILO or GRUB. Now it's UEFI or MBR, 4 different bootloaders, OpenRC or SystemD, more file system choices...
I wouldn't say it's more difficult, if anything it is more flexible. _________________ "You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think" ~ Dorothy Parker
2021 is the year of the Linux Desktop! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
duane Apprentice
Joined: 03 Jun 2002 Posts: 193 Location: Oklahoma City
|
Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
pjp wrote: | Has it gotten more complicated to start with? I've never understood the perception that it is difficult or takes a long time to learn. I would say that the first install takes more patience and actual reading, but I found it to be pretty easy. And that was when stage1 was the standard starting point. |
I don't think the installation is difficult. However, I'm surprised that configuring your kernel is still recommended when first installing. I tell people to use genkernel until the system's up and running. Then they can go back and make a custom kernel. I wouldn't be surprised if that turns off a lot of people. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Muso Veteran
Joined: 22 Oct 2002 Posts: 1052 Location: The Holy city of Honolulu
|
Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
duane wrote: | pjp wrote: | Has it gotten more complicated to start with? I've never understood the perception that it is difficult or takes a long time to learn. I would say that the first install takes more patience and actual reading, but I found it to be pretty easy. And that was when stage1 was the standard starting point. |
I don't think the installation is difficult. However, I'm surprised that configuring your kernel is still recommended when first installing. I tell people to use genkernel until the system's up and running. Then they can go back and make a custom kernel. I wouldn't be surprised if that turns off a lot of people. |
The problem with genkernel is that it requires util-linux to be built with USE="static-libs*". _________________ "You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think" ~ Dorothy Parker
2021 is the year of the Linux Desktop! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
pjp Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002 Posts: 20067
|
Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
Tony0945 wrote: | pjp wrote: | The only "concern" I have is that every now and again I stumble upon something that changed years ago, but the old way was still working. I'm hoping I don't get bit by something. |
I'm sure you have some sort of software engineering background like me. | With Linux at the time, I'd never used it professionally. I had done minor SA work on a SVRmumble UNIX. I'd briefly used COHERENT from MWC (actually, just had it installed. Never did much with it). Similar with I think a Slackware. I noticed an article about Stampede Linux, and kept an eye on it for a while, but it never materialized (or maybe I lost track of it). The first time I could get modem connectivity was with Caldera. But again, didn't do much with it. Tried Debian after that, didn't care for the community at the time, and really haven't given it another chance. Eventually I landed on some version of RedHat and was using that reluctantly until I discovered Gentoo.
Tony0945 wrote: | That made Gentoo exciting and understandable. People coming from Windows or Ubunto or RedHat and are non-technical have a much steeper learning curve and usually don't really want to make choices. They don't want to modify their engine; they just want to drive their car or preferably have someone drive it for them. | Then they're making the wrong choice. The other issue is people choosing to make too many unnecessary choices. I go with defaults unless I have a reason not to. I run stable except on a minimal per-package basis only, and then only reluctantly (I tried system-wide once, undid that and no plans to try again). Just because you can turn a knob, doesn't mean you should.
Muso wrote: | There are more choices and options when installing now. The big one back in the old days was LILO or GRUB. Now it's UEFI or MBR, 4 different bootloaders, OpenRC or SystemD, more file system choices...
I wouldn't say it's more difficult, if anything it is more flexible. | It was quite a while before I tried ext4. ext3 was not presenting any stability issues. And now that I look, there seem to be far too may fs types in Linux these days (binfmt_misc, cgroup_root, cpu, cpuacct, cpuset, debugfs, devpts, devtmpfs, freezer, fusectl, mqueue, none, openrc, proc, sysfs, tmpfs). And I only recently gave in to using Grub 2.
I guess I've generally preferred a stable system so I could do other things rather than have a system to jack around with for no apparent reason.
duane wrote: | I don't think the installation is difficult. However, I'm surprised that configuring your kernel is still recommended when first installing. I tell people to use genkernel until the system's up and running. Then they can go back and make a custom kernel. I wouldn't be surprised if that turns off a lot of people. | I thought genkernel was listed too, but it's been a while since I've looked. Either genkernel didn't exist when I started, or I didn't know about it. I was not familiar with how to meaningfully compile a kernel when I started, and it wasn't that difficult to find answers on how to identify hardware, etc. Yes, it definitely requires time, which itself requires patience. When it doesn't boot and you learn that you need the fs drivers compiled into the kernel, it isn't too hard to find those and enable them. Finding the NIC driver is probably the most tricky. I don't recall having trouble with video drivers. However, getting X to work was a bit of a pain. _________________ Quis separabit? Quo animo? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Muso Veteran
Joined: 22 Oct 2002 Posts: 1052 Location: The Holy city of Honolulu
|
Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
pjp wrote: | It was quite a while before I tried ext4. ext3 was not presenting any stability issues. And now that I look, there seem to be far too may fs types in Linux these days (binfmt_misc, cgroup_root, cpu, cpuacct, cpuset, debugfs, devpts, devtmpfs, freezer, fusectl, mqueue, none, openrc, proc, sysfs, tmpfs). And I only recently gave in to using Grub 2.
I guess I've generally preferred a stable system so I could do other things rather than have a system to jack around with for no apparent reason. |
Same. ext4 is fine, I have /boot as fat32 just because of UEFI. GRUB2 is fine. But because of so many options, I think new users would be best served by sticking with the recommended.
I experimented with filesystems a lot more years ago. Losing data after a power surges decreased my desire to keep playing with more exotic varieties. So these days, I just stick with ext4. _________________ "You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think" ~ Dorothy Parker
2021 is the year of the Linux Desktop! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Suicidal l33t
Joined: 30 Jul 2003 Posts: 959 Location: /dev/null
|
Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: Leaving Gentoo for Arch |
|
|
ayeyes wrote: | if one doesn't have OCD that's all I have can say about that. |
Funny considering being a little OCD is the reason most of us keep coming back |
|
Back to top |
|
|
sao98021 Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 03 Apr 2012 Posts: 145 Location: Michigan
|
Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
"Derpderpderpderp"
thats my brain on archsystemd |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jonathan183 Guru
Joined: 13 Dec 2011 Posts: 318
|
Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I originally only read this thread because of the original title which was in my opinion poorly chosen ...
I used Arch for quite a few years ... stopped using it because of problems with systemd, they also started doing some stuff like merging /bin with /usr/bin etc. For the setup I had the merging did not really affect me but systemd was a problem ... on a number of occasions I had the system not booting without me making a mess of things (which did not happen with the previous init system) - so it was time to move on.
I don't think I will use Arch again ... but I'm glad it is an option and hope it works out for the OP |
|
Back to top |
|
|
erm67 l33t
Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 653 Location: EU
|
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
duane wrote: | I've spent days trying to get X to run fast on arch, but it's still benchmarking significantly better under gentoo, even running the same kernel (file). If I have to recompile kernel, mesa, etc. to get the same performance on my laptop, I don't see the point in switching. |
I am curious, what performance/benchmark, HW, drivers, CFLAGS .... _________________ Ok boomer
True ignorance is not the absence of knowledge, but the refusal to acquire it.
Ab esse ad posse valet, a posse ad esse non valet consequentia
My fediverse account: @erm67@erm67.dynu.net |
|
Back to top |
|
|
duane Apprentice
Joined: 03 Jun 2002 Posts: 193 Location: Oklahoma City
|
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
erm67 wrote: | duane wrote: | I've spent days trying to get X to run fast on arch, but it's still benchmarking significantly better under gentoo, even running the same kernel (file). If I have to recompile kernel, mesa, etc. to get the same performance on my laptop, I don't see the point in switching. |
I am curious, what performance/benchmark, HW, drivers, CFLAGS .... |
Here's the thread I started on the arch forums about the issue. I kind of hate to bother anyone about it, since it's not like anything's broken.
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1813546
Edit: Most of the problem turned out to be arch having enabled dri3 in the xf86-video-intel driver -- fairly easy to fix. Still haven't figured out why wine is slower. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
erm67 l33t
Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 653 Location: EU
|
Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
Basically to get the same performance (+/- 5% due to -march=native) all you have to do is recompile a single buggy package: the intel driver ......... And once Intel fixes the driver for your card not even that ....
Yaeh Fedora and Arch sometimes uses very recent releases that might not work on a few systems and don't care about them .......... I had a similar problem with a kernel failing to boot on Arch and moved to a different distro after a few months since recompiling the kernel every time was too much work for me and arch devs refused to fix it since it affected only very few systems. _________________ Ok boomer
True ignorance is not the absence of knowledge, but the refusal to acquire it.
Ab esse ad posse valet, a posse ad esse non valet consequentia
My fediverse account: @erm67@erm67.dynu.net |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Zucca Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 3345 Location: Rasi, Finland
|
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I visited Archipelago, but eventually got back. Basically bleeding edge systemd was the main reason.
Also as some have already stated, the forums were not as friendly or welcoming as we have here. _________________ ..: Zucca :..
Gentoo IRC channels reside on Libera.Chat.
--
Quote: | I am NaN! I am a man! |
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Anon-E-moose Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008 Posts: 6098 Location: Dallas area
|
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Zucca wrote: | I visited Archipelago, but eventually got back. Basically bleeding edge systemd was the main reason.
Also as some have already stated, the forums were not as friendly or welcoming as we have here. |
Their forums suck, but their wiki's are pretty helpful. _________________ PRIME x570-pro, 3700x, 6.1 zen kernel
gcc 13, profile 17.0 (custom bare multilib), openrc, wayland |
|
Back to top |
|
|
1clue Advocate
Joined: 05 Feb 2006 Posts: 2569
|
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Anon-E-moose wrote: | Zucca wrote: | I visited Archipelago, but eventually got back. Basically bleeding edge systemd was the main reason.
Also as some have already stated, the forums were not as friendly or welcoming as we have here. |
Their forums suck, but their wiki's are pretty helpful. |
Actually the arch wiki and documentation is second to none. I frequently use it even though I no longer run an arch box. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Ant P. Watchman
Joined: 18 Apr 2009 Posts: 6920
|
Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
Take the code, avoid the crowds. Usually solid advice for a lot of FOSS. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
pjp Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002 Posts: 20067
|
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
An addendum to my earlier post.
My perspective was from the point of view of headless systems.
GUI on a laptop? Not so much. Resisting the urge to go back to the spinning rust with Windows 10. _________________ Quis separabit? Quo animo? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
duane Apprentice
Joined: 03 Jun 2002 Posts: 193 Location: Oklahoma City
|
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The archiso scripts are a lot of fun too -- much easier to work with than catalyst, at least in my case. (And, needless to say, little compiling time.)
I did find the absence of a few programs (that I make a lot of use of) from the official repositories to be odd, but that probably says more about me than it does about the repositories. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
matt_w Apprentice
Joined: 17 Nov 2003 Posts: 233 Location: UK
|
Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
Naib wrote: | You will be back | Gentoo is the Hotel California of linux. I tried leaving here too many times to count. I was 18 when I first joined. And boy does it show.
EDIT: Wow, in 11 days, it'll have been 15 years ago since I first attempted an install. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
shadywack n00b
Joined: 30 Aug 2012 Posts: 31
|
Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
Duder wrote: | Naib wrote: | You will be back | Gentoo is the Hotel California of linux. I tried leaving here too many times to count. I was 18 when I first joined. And boy does it show.
EDIT: Wow, in 11 days, it'll have been 15 years ago since I first attempted an install. |
Man that's the truth. I keep coming back. I really do like Manjaro a lot too, but Gentoo's my go to. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|