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pjp
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
User: tld
Topic: SystemD free system/gentoo
Post: post 8242284
Reason: Just a suggestion, there is a lot of offtopic chatter starting with this post, that should probably either be split out or moved into the politics of systemd thread (that itself seems to be non-topic at this time, but fits as the usual echo chamber meeting point).

asturm wrote:
User: steveL
Topic: SystemD free system/gentoo
Post: post 8243436
Reason: It must be torture for steveL to feel like being ignored, but it is no excuse for him to reach a new low. Responding in any way would not do this thread any favor, that was just back on its way to getting productive again. Just like his first attempt to stir the pot, it is pure politics; and the part that is not insulting can be moved into the aptly named existing thread, ready to be ignored by folks who try to produce more than hot air. Meanwhile, a patch that would actually make a difference is waiting to be picked up...

steveL wrote:
Just noticed this. With respect to the moderators, I'd like to come back to it as I'm way past my alloted internet-rambling time, and I am very tired.

Will respond when next online, forthwith.
steveL,

I'm interpreting your post to be referencing asturm's report?

I've merged your post, asturm's and Ant P.'s to the politics thread. The attempt is to keep the "SystemD free system/gentoo" technical and free from the politics. Let me know if I misunderstood.

Posts, in case anyone wants to find them directly:
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-8242580.html#8242580 (Ant P)

https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-8242582.html#8242582 (asturm)

https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-8243436.html#8243436 (steveL)

https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-8246452.html#8246452 (steveL)

OK, so at this point, all of page 3 of "SystemD free system/gentoo" appears to be without politics (but not all noise -- that's probably an unreasonable goal). I've also moved a few posts from page 2 to the politics thread. Hopefully that will be sufficient.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
steveL,

I'm interpreting your post to be referencing asturm's report?
Yes, I was trying to work out what I'd been reported for; I couldn't quite make out what all the smears about "new lows" were actually referring to, beyond asturm's usual incomprehension of politics hiding behind the usual "apolitical" nonsense. (Not going in to the old discussion, since the rest of us all know it so Orwell.)
Quote:
I've merged your post, asturm's and Ant P.'s to the politics thread. The attempt is to keep the "SystemD free system/gentoo" technical and free from the politics. Let me know if I misunderstood.
..
OK, so at this point, all of page 3 of "SystemD free system/gentoo" appears to be without politics (but not all noise -- that's probably an unreasonable goal). I've also moved a few posts from page 2 to the politics thread. Hopefully that will be sufficient.
Fine by me ;-)
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Yes, I was trying to work out what I'd been reported for; I couldn't quite make out what all the smears about "new lows" were actually referring to

You're right, it's actually not special behaviour for you.

/me bangs heads together. -- NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Yes, I was trying to work out what I'd been reported for; I couldn't quite make out what all the smears about "new lows" were actually referring to
asturm wrote:
You're right, it's actually not special behaviour for you.
That's rich coming from Gentoo's latest bile duct.
Nonetheless, you have still not said anything specific.
What a surprise, there you go again, evading the question and the substantive, solely to come back with drip-drip toxicity.

Neddy: ffs deal with the actuality of how this "developer" keeps talking down to and about the rest of the users, most of whom have ten times as much IT experience in their little-fingers.

The Gentoo finishing school needs to sort out its standards. Again.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Nonetheless, you have still not said anything specific.

If you don't see the issue with your posts then you are a lost cause; there is nothing for me to do here.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Nonetheless, you have still not said anything specific.
asturm wrote:
If you don't see the issue with your posts then you are a lost cause; there is nothing for me to do here.
IOW: you do not have anything specific to complain about, when it comes to actually reasoning anything through.

Nonetheless, the point has been raised (and well done for ignoring the substantive again) that your behaviour is consistently at odds with both the spirit and the letter of the Code of Conduct, on a routine and ongoing basis.

Perhaps you could deal with that in your next missive, rather than being so evasive.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah I see; the usual from whoever happens to be the nominated viper for the forums, this year (though it's been a long nomination: at least 5 years of consistent nastiness that I have witnessed.)

To wit: users must be held to an inordinately high standard that no "developer" could even dream of adhering to.

Whereas "developers" can persistently behave boorishly, and be held to no standard whatsoever.

Brava.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you making this a monthly recurring event now? Because I already lost interest the first time it took you that long to recollect yourself.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Are you making this a monthly recurring event now? Because I already lost interest the first time it took you that long to recollect yourself.
What makes you think that your level of "interest" has anything whatsoever to do with a CoC report against you?

Incidentally, your post demonstrates yet again just how cavalier you are in ignoring your CoC responsibility, and in denigrating others.

QED, IOW.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
What makes you think that your level of "interest" has anything whatsoever to do with a CoC report against you?

Oh, did you for some reason mistake this thread for a pillory? What fun, considering it started with a CoC report against you, which you still didn't grasp. I certainly don't force you to come back here and make an ass of yourself.

steveL wrote:
Incidentally, your post demonstrates yet again just how cavalier you are in ignoring your CoC responsibility, and in denigrating others.

That's rich, just listen to your own words.

Maybe you should take a voluntary timeout in your favorite spa, without digital access.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
What makes you think that your level of "interest" has anything whatsoever to do with a CoC report against you?
asturm wrote:
I certainly don't force you to come back here and make an ass of yourself.
No one ever forces you to behave like an asshole, asturm.. when will you get that through your head? It's all on you.

I am sorry you do not recognize when your behaviour leads to yaf series of complaints against you.

Irrespective of where something gets split out, I note that you have not once expressed any astonishment or miscomprehension of just why you are being complained about. Not that it would fly, given the volume of complaints specifically about you in the 2 months before I posted.

Or did you think because they were deleted, that the moderators and the users concerned had forgotten those?
Never mind the consistent pattern of low-level nastiness over more than 5 years, that occasionally blows up into something worse, but never anything better.

A "dev badge" should never be taken as vindication of social behaviour; you are the object case for just how badly that misunderstanding can go wrong, afaic. Well, you would be, but we've had several before to my personal knowledge, and no doubt the mods have seen many more.

So I guess you're just the latest in a list, far outweighed by the rest.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Never mind the consistent pattern of low-level nastiness over more than 5 years

In your head - it does not become any more substantive just because you keep perpetuating your little narrative. You really seem to be quite obsessed. Didn't take you a full month this time though.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
steveL wrote:
What makes you think that your level of "interest" has anything whatsoever to do with a CoC report against you?
asturm wrote:
I certainly don't force you to come back here and make an ass of yourself.
No one ever forces you to behave like an asshole, asturm.. when will you get that through your head? It's all on you.

I am sorry you do not recognize when your behaviour leads to yaf series of complaints against you.

Irrespective of where something gets split out, I note that you have not once expressed any astonishment or miscomprehension of just why you are being complained about. Not that it would fly, given the volume of complaints specifically about you in the 2 months before I posted.

Or did you think because they were deleted, that the moderators and the users concerned had forgotten those?
Never mind the consistent pattern of low-level nastiness over more than 5 years, that occasionally blows up into something worse, but never anything better.

A "dev badge" should never be taken as vindication of social behaviour; you are the object case for just how badly that misunderstanding can go wrong, afaic. Well, you would be, but we've had several before to my personal knowledge, and no doubt the mods have seen many more.

So I guess you're just the latest in a list, far outweighed by the rest.
You regularly claim that astrum, or whichever other dev is in your sights at the time, is spreading bile, have you not reflected upon your own posts in that regard?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultory wrote:
You regularly claim that astrum, or whichever other dev is in your sights at the time, is spreading bile, have you not reflected upon your own posts in that regard?
Absolutely, all the time.
You are incorrect however: I have been stating the same thing about asturm, on and off I'd say about annually, since he started posting as genstorm. That the moderators choose to ignore the continued low-level bile he drips (even when we've had a run-in and he's posting "nicely", he's always dropping in a comment on how dumb the users are) is another matter.
You cannot be unaware of all the other complaints, as a team.

By all means point out any bile you see, as and when it happens in regular posts; if you think for a moment though, on the implications and clear inferences intended in asturm's posts, that is if you read as a moderator and not as a "developer" who's got their back up, then you will see that whilst my tone in this thread may not be as pleasant as I normally strive for, it is nowhere near as unpleasant as asturm is, both herein, and more generally: the reason for the complaint/s.

None of which seem to have any effect on his behaviour, since as noted he follows in the tradition of taking his dev-badge as social vindication, when it is nothing of the sort, by definition and long-championed (by the devs) custom.
Nor do any of the moderators ever pick asturm up on his nastiness, as if it's okay so long as it's veiled and one can pretend only to read the letters, not the words nor the statements.
This is nothing new ofc: it is in fact par for the course for users to be berated openly and developers to have a quiet word, that no-one can ever be sure about.

I just thought we'd moved past those days.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm left wondering how much worse ciaranm must've been in those days, to get evicted from the community entirely, when behaviour like this is allowed to stay.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can we just lock this thread, there's nothing positive coming from it, childish bickering hardly ever is.

It's obvious the two don't like each other, and yet don't have the ability to keep away from each other.
They both provide some positive technical merits at times, but this back and forth isn't part of that.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
and yet don't have the ability to keep away from each other.


Don't take the dreaded 'both sides' approach of US media. I'd like to point out that I deliberately steered clear of steveL in my reaction to his unforced unloading back in the systemd thread, so there's that. This thread, then, was forced on me. And I don't see any reason to play possum to what has become steveL's little obsession, at least [as long as it is] outside of support forums.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
desultory wrote:
You regularly claim that astrum, or whichever other dev is in your sights at the time, is spreading bile, have you not reflected upon your own posts in that regard?
Absolutely, all the time.
You are incorrect however: I have been stating the same thing about asturm, on and off I'd say about annually, since he started posting as genstorm. That the moderators choose to ignore the continued low-level bile he drips (even when we've had a run-in and he's posting "nicely", he's always dropping in a comment on how dumb the users are) is another matter.
You cannot be unaware of all the other complaints, as a team.

By all means point out any bile you see, as and when it happens in regular posts; if you think for a moment though, on the implications and clear inferences intended in asturm's posts, that is if you read as a moderator and not as a "developer" who's got their back up, then you will see that whilst my tone in this thread may not be as pleasant as I normally strive for, it is nowhere near as unpleasant as asturm is, both herein, and more generally: the reason for the complaint/s.

None of which seem to have any effect on his behaviour, since as noted he follows in the tradition of taking his dev-badge as social vindication, when it is nothing of the sort, by definition and long-championed (by the devs) custom.
Nor do any of the moderators ever pick asturm up on his nastiness, as if it's okay so long as it's veiled and one can pretend only to read the letters, not the words nor the statements.
This is nothing new ofc: it is in fact par for the course for users to be berated openly and developers to have a quiet word, that no-one can ever be sure about.

I just thought we'd moved past those days.
Do kindly forgive the lateness of my reply, I have been having connection issues, among other things, of late; so I will leave my search for bile for another time, and leave this as a reminder to you of your own advice:
steveL wrote:
Hint: as soon as you find yourself reaching for ad-hominem, you know you are on the wrong path.

Bleeding obvious: when your interlocutor (the person on the other end of a conversation) starts talking about a "pissing-contest" you really should look back at your previous statements to ask yourself what was meant; in any event you try to turn it down a notch, not up.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I can't attest to the level of invective that steveL has attributed to asturm, I can relay that my initial encounters with him (https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1085396.html) consisted of his essentially blowing me off and dismissing any arguments with non-responses; essentially not treating me seriously or with respect. I wouldn't call any of this rule breaking necessarily, but in his last response he decided to be rather rude and assume based on virtually nothing that I didn't package or write software (period, not just in relation to Gentoo), and he assumed this in a statement I can only describe as passive aggressive and condescending. I can vouch that he has had done similar behaviour in many other threads; personally I would expect a higher standard of self-presentation from an officially developer of Gentoo, at least outside of "Off the Wall".
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Morality124: I edited your post and removed the "sid" portion of the url you pasted. It is at least theoretically possible for a session to be hijacked using that information.


Now for your post. I'm only commenting on the specific link you referenced and no other comments. In it, I read:
my interpretation wrote:
openrc vresion 0.38.2 works without systemd.
Which was in direct response to your comment about "blocking systemd more effectively."

In the next post, I read
my interpretation wrote:
Don't believe everything you read on the forums
my interpretation wrote:
If you aren't packaging your own software (or writing your own software), then you may be at risk of "something bad happening."
also translated as wrote:
At some point, you have to trust someone if you aren't doing it yourself.
In no way did I read either post as rude, etc.

I'm not saying you're perception isn't valid, but as you can see, it does create a bit of a different problem. What might cause people to interpret the same words differently? How is a "higher standard of self-presentation" represented across cultural and language barriers? How is a "uniformly acceptable standard" teachable given that there may be as many interpretations as there are individuals involved?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
@Morality124: I edited your post and removed the "sid" portion of the url you pasted. It is at least theoretically possible for a session to be hijacked using that information.


Now for your post. I'm only commenting on the specific link you referenced and no other comments. In it, I read:
my interpretation wrote:
openrc vresion 0.38.2 works without systemd.
Which was in direct response to your comment about "blocking systemd more effectively."

In the next post, I read
my interpretation wrote:
Don't believe everything you read on the forums
my interpretation wrote:
If you aren't packaging your own software (or writing your own software), then you may be at risk of "something bad happening."
also translated as wrote:
At some point, you have to trust someone if you aren't doing it yourself.
In no way did I read either post as rude, etc.

I'm not saying you're perception isn't valid, but as you can see, it does create a bit of a different problem. What might cause people to interpret the same words differently? How is a "higher standard of self-presentation" represented across cultural and language barriers? How is a "uniformly acceptable standard" teachable given that there may be as many interpretations as there are individuals involved?


Well, there are two approaches I can see. First would be either to follow the perspective of the customer-client relationship, where you maintain a cordial dialogue in order to create a transnational relationship, and the free market teaches one to weed out ineffective behaviour in favour of more effective behaviour. Now granted, this isn't a 1-to-1 translation this isn't a monetary transaction, but I would think the developers would want to "sell" Gentoo in a way that encourage participation, even if they do not seek MY participation (i.e. best effort to encourage others' participation in how concerns are addressed). That's not to say all behaviour has been tolerated (for example, see axl's string of rather obnoxious posts in one of the systemd threads which asturm promptly and effectively countered), but I think an good faith attempt to voice concern should be met as such.

But if the developers don't consider that priority, which I can fully understand (I too sometimes put developing focus over social awareness at times), then second way to deal with IMO is how Theo DeRaadt does. Theo is notoriously cankerous, "colourful", abrupt, blunt, etc, but he is capable of arguing points and backing up his arguments. In other words, he puts his money where his mouth is, and will defend what he truly believes in a debate (as opposed to say, Lennart Poettering, who actively shuts down debate as we have seen time and time again).

The problem IMO is that asturm did neither of these approaches, or really anything that positive IMO. He was neither addressing points in a way I could intellectually respect, nor was he behaving in a way I would characterize as productive towards the approximation of a customer-client relationship. By contrast, I've seen more of this customer-client relationship AND intellectual arguments from those I've cited in my original post (the sysadmins for lack of a better term) than any developer I've seen post her over the last two years, which quite frankly has really only included asturm from what I can see.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But that's after evaluating the complaint.

As I mentioned, I didn't read the posts in question in the referenced thread as meeting any level of concern. So using your customer-client relationship scenario, I read the complaint, and I'm completely baffled why there was a complaint. I think to myself, "maybe they were offended by the use of the word crap." So I would have to respond and ask for clarification about what it is in the posts that causes you concern?

And that is the problem. I can accept that you have a problem with those posts. But I cannot fathom why. So I'd be in the position of saying "So, apparently you offended someone with those posts. Whatever you did, don't do it again." In order to try making improvements, I have to first understand what needs to be improved.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
I think to myself, "maybe they were offended by the use of the word crap."

I'm thinking they could not, since the passage was directly [deliberately] copied from the same person. Needless to say it is otherwise not part of my repertoire.

Morality124 wrote:
but in his last response he decided to be rather rude and assume based on virtually nothing that I didn't package or write software (period, not just in relation to Gentoo)

I would never have thought you could interpret my words as such.

As you seem to be quite fluent in OTW, maybe you are reading posts with too much negative bias as a result?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
pjp wrote:
I think to myself, "maybe they were offended by the use of the word crap."

I'm thinking they could not, since the passage was directly [deliberately] copied from the same person. Needless to say it is otherwise not part of my repertoire.
I didn't mean it literally, just in the hypothetical customer-client scenario of trying to understand and respond to a "customer complaint." As the hypothetical "manager," I can acknowledge a complaint, but I can't do much with it if I don't understand it.
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