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khayyam
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
Code:
net-analyzer/wireshark-2.6.3 (gtk ? x11-misc/xdg-utils)
                             (qt5 ? x11-misc/xdg-utils)

Tony0945 ... you know why that dependency exists? It's so that if/when you select 'help' it knows what browser to open the help files in ... even though a preference exists to define the browser of choice (yup, "professional" network analyzer). I don't have cups or xsane but it probably serves equally mundane purposes there.

NeddySeagoon wrote:
You can't stay in the past. You will eventually suffer from bitrot.

In the avoidance of "futurerot", it's probably worth it ;)

best ... khay
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the cups source
Code:
The CUPS web interface menu item now uses the xdg-open

and it's for opening the browser to read the html file. :roll:

xsane has it as a requirement but don't know why as it's not referenced in the source at all.
Ah it's in the patch set :roll:
Code:
001-xdg-open-as-default-browser.patch:+#  define DEFAULT_BROWSER "xdg-open"

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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam,

I'm firmly embedded in the past with my static /dev install.
I do keep the packages installed up to date by careful selection of USE flags and the odd application of the olde-gentoo USE flag.

Its getting harder. I still have openrc-0.17 which blocks sys-apps/opentmpfiles.
More and more things want sys-apps/opentmpfiles, most recently, sudo.
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neddy, I added "virtual/tmpfiles-0" to packages.provided and that shut sudo up. It was the tmpfiles.eclass that was trying to pull it in (RDEPEND).
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose,

Thank you.

I had got as far as the tmpfiles.eclass but not working out what it did for me.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
I'm firmly embedded in the past with my static /dev install. I do keep the packages installed up to date by careful selection of USE flags and the odd application of the olde-gentoo USE flag.

NeddySeagoon ... I know, that wasn't a dig at you, I'm just venting some spleen ... the future looks rotten to me :)

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Its getting harder. I still have openrc-0.17 which blocks sys-apps/opentmpfiles. More and more things want sys-apps/opentmpfiles, most recently, sudo.

Hehe ... I have 0.12.4, and don't plan on changing that, regardless of what dependencies (or other changes) come about. I expect to be using another distro in the not too distant future.

best ... khay
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Tony0945,

You can't stay in the past. You will eventually suffer from bitrot.
You need your own overlay.

I have the olde-gentoo USE flag in my local overlay to keep up to date and at the same time, keep guff[1] off my static /dev system.

[1] A Scottish technical term that you may need Google.
See also 'footer'

Yes, I need to examine what is produced and what has changed between 1.1.2 and 1.1.3 to make my own ebuild.
No time right now to play with a secondary package while I have primary packages to work on.
Gnome-games is so messed up that I have to emerge it with keepwork and rebuild a new package with a clean ebuild (hopefully EAPI 7) and a new tarball that I will keep on my local Apache server.
It would be good to put these builds on github or whatever, but that's another whole new learning curve. I have been urged to do by people offering to help.
Being of a certain age, you will no doubt appreciate that one's relatives are also as old or even older which also occupies time.

"guff" means about what I thought it would, but "footer" was a surprise.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Khayyam & Anon-E-moose: Thanks for the input. With a little patching, I might not need xdg-utils at all.
I hate to hardcode Firefox or Palemoon. Any suggestions? just reading a file to read the preference would be OK, but I'm sure there is something more elegant. When I click a link in an email in Thunderbird, it knows to launch Palemoon. Come to thibk of it, I vaguely recall there is a preference setting in Thunderbird for all sorts of application. Hardly needs dbus or perl.


Last edited by Tony0945 on Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you needed xdg-open you could just strip it out and put it in /usr/local/bin.

If you look at the file, there isn't much it does, most of it is a case statement for figuring out which DE one has.


Edit to add: more info on various pieces of xdg-utils https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Xdg-utils
Although in looking in .local/share/applications I have stuff that's been there forever even though many of the apps I no longer have.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did some more research this morning. Only xdg-screensaver really needs dbus. The other utilities call dbus-send in a long chain of elif's to determine if the desktop is gnome. A simple gnome flag will take care of this. With Use -gnome there is no need to check for gnome.

xdg-screensaver is another story. It depends heavily on dbus calls to work. I find it used only by xfce4-session and mate-screensaver which do NOT have dbus in their dependencies!


Can some script guru tell me what happens in this code fragment if dbus-send does not exist?
Code:
     if [ x"$KDE_FULL_SESSION" != x"" ]; then DE=kde;
      elif [ x"$GNOME_DESKTOP_SESSION_ID" != x"" ]; then DE=gnome;
      elif [ x"$MATE_DESKTOP_SESSION_ID" != x"" ]; then DE=mate;
      elif `dbus-send --print-reply --dest=org.freedesktop.DBus /org/freedesktop/DBus org.freedesktop.DBus.GetNameOwner string:org.gnome.SessionManager > /dev/null 2>&1` ; then DE=gnome;
      elif xprop -root _DT_SAVE_MODE 2> /dev/null | grep ' = \"xfce4\"$' >/dev/null 2>&1; then DE=xfce;
      elif xprop -root 2> /dev/null | grep -i '^xfce_desktop_window' >/dev/null 2>&1; then DE=xfce
      elif echo $DESKTOP | grep -q '^Enlightenment'; then DE=enlightenment;
      fi
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if dbus-send doesn't exist it returns a 127 (non zero) return code, which should fail and go to the next elif

you only need xdg-screensaver if you want some other application or the command line to interface with xscreensaver.

If you're modifying them for your use, you could just yank out the elif for dbus-send or just remove the whole if-elif statement and put what you want there as an end result.
It's just trying to figure out what DE it is, although it shouldn't matter in most cases.

edit to add: from the arch wiki about xdg-utils
Code:
DESCRIPTION
xdg-screensaver provides commands to control the screensaver.
xdg-screensaver is for use inside a desktop session only. It is not recommended to use xdg-screensaver as root.

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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
If you're modifying them for your use, you could just yank out the elif for dbus-send or just remove the whole if-elif statement and put what you want there as an end result.
It's just trying to figure out what DE it is, although it shouldn't matter in most cases.

No need to patch the code it seems. dbus is only needed (maybe!) if one is running gnome in which case dbus will be surely there.
So, modify the ebuild to require dbus if the gnome useflag is on.

I did examine the 1.1.1 and 1.1.3 tarballs with meld. Aside from changes to the tests, which seem to be for development use,
there is one gnome specific change and correction of one misspelling, adding a period at the end of a comment and the addition of quite a few misspellings.

I see no reason to update unless one is running gnome.


Last edited by Tony0945 on Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:11 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
you only need xdg-screensaver if you want some other application or the command line to interface with xscreensaver.
Removed xscreensaver from my server which allowed me to get rid of dbus again. The server runs lumina, which is evolving to be less usefull for me, but the server is physically next to the router and cable modem so it's handy to have some sort of GUI to run a web browser on.

Unsure whether to maintain this myself just to ignore dbus or not. cups, for example may work just fine without it or dbus. meld was suppose to require dbus also, but again, it turned out to be true only for gnome. Would say more but want to keep this non-political, just technical.
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cups and xsane use xdg-open, but it's for the browser to pull up help/documentation. Other than that not needed for either.
And as you saw dbus isn't really needed except for the screensaver portion.

What I did was just copy the /usr/bin/xdg-* stuff to /usr/local/bin and added the xdg-utils to package.provided so it wouldn't try and update or pull it in.
I'll get around to editing the files and yanking out the dbus-send stuff along with the "determine DE" code eventually as it's not needed in my case (openbox)

Edit to add: the only difference I can see between the 1.1.1 version I was running and the new 1.1.3 version is that dbus is now a dependency.
But it was always needed for the xdg-screensaver stuff to work.

So if your system worked before without dbus being on your system, it will work with the new stuff w/o dbus.
In other words there probably wasn't anything using that portion of the utilities anyway.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
...Its getting harder. I still have openrc-0.17 which blocks sys-apps/opentmpfiles.
More and more things want sys-apps/opentmpfiles, most recently, sudo.


I keep hoping all of you get tired and start a fork...
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

berferd,

It wouldn't really be a fork, just an overlay or two.

There is a wiki page on an Old Fashioned Gentoo Install but I've not published a supporting overly.
Mostly because my git foo is weak but also because I can't thoroughly test things.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

berferd wrote:
I keep hoping all of you get tired and start a fork...

++
Gentoo-LTS :)

khayyam wrote:
I expect to be using another distro in the not too distant future.

:( You are one of the most resourceful and helpful ones I've encountered on here.
May I ask which ones might you consider, and perhaps why?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

josephg wrote:
May I ask which ones might you consider, and perhaps why?

pick the one you want, grass looks always greener elsewhere.
distro use either openrc or systemd, and i don't think openrc distros are using an old openrc version.
the only one i could think of is that bsd distro that has fork openrc to its own usage ; but it looks like they didn't and use "stock" openrc finally https://www.trueos.org/blog/improving-trueos-openrc/
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps it doesn't have to be OpenRC :?: I like runit much better. It certainly seems to be going the right direction, rather than try be everything for everyone.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
I expect to be using another distro in the not too distant future.

josephg wrote:
:( You are one of the most resourceful and helpful ones I've encountered on here.
May I ask which ones might you consider, and perhaps why?

josephg ... thank you. Ummm, well, for work stuff (I'm an editor) I'm using a DragonflyBSD install (that's been the case for more than a year now), as both of the gentoo installs I have are considered legacy (so, older hardware that suck where x11 is concerned, and on which I have to expend effort to make sure x,y,z function because a,b,c are now "obsolete"). I have a new (to me) Dell Precision T3400, that is without an OS, as I've been considering what my options are, and gentoo is low on the list. It'll probably be Void Linux, or perhaps *BSD ... too busy, and/or lazy, to get to it, really ... but as I said I don't expect to be using gentoo for much longer, for reasons which span a variety of subjects (most of which you can probably gleen from my posts).

krinn wrote:
pick the one you want, grass looks always greener elsewhere.

krinn ... I thought that underneath those parisian pavements was a beach? The ancient greeks had it that the sky was gold, but nowerdays you'd be hard pressed to find someone who didn't insist it were blue, even when empirical evidence might contradict it. So, yes, the grass always looks greener, even when most grasses are beige, golden, or various shades of blue. Oh, and btw, I'd like to invoke the "don't let the grass grow under your feet" counter-argument ;)

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the concept of gentoo, but I'm getting tired of the constant trying to make non-systemd choices look like systemd.
I'm spending too much time trying to watch for (systemd'ism) incursions vs just using the system (which is the way it was for years)

So my choices are to lock the system where it is, and not upgrade or do my own ebuilds for major upgrades (or unsystemd those ebuilds)
and no, just accepting systemd is not one of my choices, if I wanted to go that route I'd just install redhat in the first place or just use windows.

Although if someone makes an overlay that's systemd (or it's influences) free, I would consider going that route.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
I like the concept of gentoo, but I'm getting tired of the constant trying to make non-systemd choices look like systemd.
I'm spending too much time trying to watch for (systemd'ism) incursions vs just using the system (which is the way it was for years)

So my choices are to lock the system where it is, and not upgrade or do my own ebuilds for major upgrades (or unsystemd those ebuilds)
and no, just accepting systemd is not one of my choices, if I wanted to go that route I'd just install redhat in the first place or just use windows.

Although if someone makes an overlay that's systemd (or it's influences) free, I would consider going that route.
++

Optional systemd doesn't really seem that much of an option.

An overlay seems like delaying the inevitable, but it would be a good starting point.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been thinking this for a while too.. systemd does not want/like to co-exist with others. Gentoo wanting to also be friendly towards systemd just means that it's being pulled in many different directions and seems to have lost it's focus on what it is and what it wants to be. Where does it want to go? The loudest hardest pull/shove comes from systemd, and inevitably there has to be made a choice between to be or not to be systemd.

I think I would like to move to a distro or system which explicitly states that they don't or won't systemd. Otherwise, leaning in that direction will eventually topple us completely down that way.

It's the reason I don't like Gnome. They are bullies!

Before I moved to Gentoo, I evaluated Funtoo and couldn't make up my mind wrt Gentoo which felt more mainstream. I felt welcome here and stayed. I wonder what others think of Funtoo.. I like what they say! Will Funtoo stick with their current policy? http://funtoo.org/Mitigating_Systemd
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only drawback to funtoo, IMO, is that it doesn't keep up to date as quickly as gentoo (though that is positive and negative).

It's similar enough that swapping over shouldn't be a problem.

The only other option that I really see is going full LFS, and doing it all myself.
Which I did back in the 0.*-2.* kernel days.

I do like the ability to easily add and remove packages (and all associated files) so even if I did go LFS I'd probably try and keep something like portage going.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
The only drawback to funtoo, IMO, is that it doesn't keep up to date as quickly as gentoo (though that is positive and negative).

If that's the only drawback, I think that is a big positive for me!
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