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zigford
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:59 am    Post subject: Curious about Gnome project progress Reply with quote

Gnome doesn't seem super popular amongst Gentoo users, but it is pretty popular on Linux as a whole (Adopted as the main DE for many main stream distros). I happen to use and like it and and while Gentoo is pretty handy for using the latest and greatest for many software, the same is not true for Gnome.

I've read and hunted through the gentoo developer mailing list for scraps on progress of gnome updates in Gentoo (not overlay) and read there was a developer shortage, but that was a while ago.

Can anyone chime in if they know of progress? I don't really know where to look elsewhere?

Cheers.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems hard to find people who are ready to contribute back to Gentoo Gnome team, even though these days it is easier than ever to do that. While there exist at least two efforts that provide newer versions of Gnome via overlays, they do not submit their work to Gentoo and work isolated from each other. I do not quite understand the situation tbh...
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting. Do you refer to how Gentoo accepts pull requests from GitHub, or are there other mechanisms to contribute? Why would these overlays not contribute back? Is there some stigmatism which discourages contributions?

I'd like to contribute to Gentoo. I have a working ebuild for a free version of the OneDrive sync client. How could I get started?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo Proxy Maintainers: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Proxy_Maintainers
Gentoo GitHub: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Gentoo_GitHub
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my opinion, dantrell does an excellent job, enabling us to use gnome without systemd crap.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It does not matter for most Gentoo users when it does not land in Gentoo ebuild repository. I mostly see an unnecessary duplication of efforts.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, he certainly has a reason for doing it as he does, and who knows, maybe this can be integrated in main tree in the future, I agree that this would be great. I consider his project very mature and it would certainly deserve to be in gentoo maintree. I mean hell, he even created a combined plasma and gnome without systemd profile for me, that quite impressed me. :D
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Upstream just released Gnome 3.30.

Current stable version is 3.24, that's 18 months behind.

Current unstable is also 3.24, that's also 18 months behind.

It is sad to see that we don't have a more current version in Gentoo ebuild repository. :(
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erm67
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linux from scratch has gnome 3.28 if you really want to recompile everything to your taste :-)

http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/view/svn/gnome/gnome-desktop.html
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dantrell
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zigford wrote:
I've read and hunted through the gentoo developer mailing list for scraps on progress of gnome updates in Gentoo (not overlay) and read there was a developer shortage, but that was a while ago.

mike155 wrote:
It is sad to see that we don't have a more current version in Gentoo ebuild repository. :(

The Gentoo GNOME team is still understaffed but this staffing shortage is not limited to just them.

You can find an overview of all calls for recruitment on the Staffing Needs Wiki page.

Furthermore, this staffing shortage isn't a new issue and is, in my opinion, a primary reason why overlays are useful.

asturm wrote:
It seems hard to find people who are ready to contribute back to Gentoo Gnome team, even though these days it is easier than ever to do that. While there exist at least two efforts that provide newer versions of Gnome via overlays, they do not submit their work to Gentoo and work isolated from each other. I do not quite understand the situation tbh...

Elleni wrote:
In my opinion, dantrell does an excellent job, enabling us to use gnome without systemd crap.

asturm wrote:
It does not matter for most Gentoo users when it does not land in Gentoo ebuild repository. I mostly see an unnecessary duplication of efforts.

Elleni wrote:
Well, he certainly has a reason for doing it as he does, and who knows, maybe this can be integrated in main tree in the future, I agree that this would be great.

To use a relatable analogy, it's the same reason why there are so many Linux distributions and why even those Linux distributions have derivatives.

It's because of a difference in N (whether N be the design goals of the person or team or something else).

This is also, in my opinion, another primary reason why overlays are useful.

zigford wrote:
Is there some stigmatism which discourages contributions?

I would say politics, largely past politics (but also current politics) have discouraged contributions from Gentoo users who meet or exceed the qualifications necessary to be a Gentoo developer. And when I say politics, I mean bureaucracy as viewed from both the individual and organizational perspectives.

You don't have to take my word for this either, just search around for random tidbits or pieces of history.

erm67 wrote:
Linux from scratch has gnome 3.28 if you really want to recompile everything to your taste :-)

There are at least 4 Gentoo overlays which provide GNOME 3.28 or greater (and at least one that supports not only systemd but also ConsoleKit and elogind).

[Moderator edit: fixed target of URL tag to point to the intended page. -Hu]
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dantrell wrote:
This is also, in my opinion, another primary reason why overlays are useful.

dantrell wrote:
There are at least 4 Gentoo overlays which provide GNOME 3.28 or greater

This is, in my opinion, a lack of willingness to collaborate that makes me sad. Sure working with others will always involve more negotiation and not-have-it-all-your-way, but it is also a skill that we should cherish. In teams we are stronger.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
This is, in my opinion, a lack of willingness to collaborate that makes me sad. Sure working with others will always involve more negotiation and not-have-it-all-your-way, but it is also a skill that we should cherish. In teams we are stronger.

I agree that teamwork and concerted efforts can accomplish more than the sum of their independent efforts.

Bureaucracy (as I previously defined) is what turns the will to can.

You make teamwork sound easy but reality is not that simple. For a team to be most effective, there must the presence of several factors such as clear communication, trust, lack of unresolved conflicts, lack of scapegoating and subgroups and so on.

You highlight the fact that there are quite a few Gentoo GNOME overlays and thus, to use your words, quite a few overlays duplicating efforts and not contributing back to Gentoo. You are correct but this phenomenon is not just limited to GNOME. Quite a few public (and private) overlays have resulted in the duplication of efforts of large swaths of Gentoo.

I would suggest that maybe, just maybe, the problem isn't that users aren't willing to contribute but rather that the problem is Gentoo itself.

I would further suggest that even if Gentoo has changed or is in the midst of change, that perhaps the damage has already been done.

So it is not necessarily a lack willingness to collaborate that is the problem but users who can collaborate but don't, have no obligation to explain themselves.

And that's all I have to say about that.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I maintain gnome-next (yet another) overlay for very long time I've got some users there too and I also really will be glad to have more contributors to my overlay.

Compared to dantrell I don't want to support OpenRC and focus on beta gnome versions (not stable only).
I don't help gnome team/don't contribute fixes to 3.24 because it's simply out of my interest.
Gnome team don't need any help from me too because by doing all the updating work by myself I often drop some useless for myself patches and sometimes forgot to update some DEPS, I only ensure that it's working on my two machines and review users issues which is not enough to be helpful.

I have hopes that one day gnome team will have overlay for beta/actual versions of gnome which I will be able to use and contribute there, I don't have any personal conflicts with gnome team and don't want to blame them for speed because everyone is doing it for free and real quality costs a lot.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I were qualified to contribute on a more technical level I'd love to try and help the Gnome team out. For the sheer lack of knowledge on my part on what goes into getting a package in the portage tree, what do the Gentoo devs do differently than the overlay maintainers do with regards to Gnome?

I genuinely ask out of curiosity as I've tried a few overlays and they seem to work, I'm sure there are bugs and issues beneath the surface I wasn't aware of, and I'm making the supposition that perhaps the Gentoo devs far more thoroughly review things such as dependencies, polkit policies, etc.

On this subject as well, THANK YOU to the devs who have gotten the project as far as it is. I'm sure everyone would love to see 3.28 in stable, but I do love Gentoo. I'm impressed by what's available to me and it's by far my favorite distro.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cynede wrote:
I maintain gnome-next (yet another) overlay for very long time I've got some users there too and I also really will be glad to have more contributors to my overlay.

Thanks for your work. I referenced it heavily during the early days.

shadywack wrote:
If I were qualified to contribute on a more technical level I'd love to try and help the Gnome team out. For the sheer lack of knowledge on my part on what goes into getting a package in the portage tree, what do the Gentoo devs do differently than the overlay maintainers do with regards to Gnome?

I genuinely ask out of curiosity as I've tried a few overlays and they seem to work, I'm sure there are bugs and issues beneath the surface I wasn't aware of, and I'm making the supposition that perhaps the Gentoo devs far more thoroughly review things such as dependencies, polkit policies, etc.

Generally speaking, when Gentoo developers work with ebuilds they ensure that the package dependencies, configure options and USE flags are up-to-date.

Generally speaking, they also ensure that the package builds for the greatest number of users and roll out releases based on channel (stable or ~) and architecture (e.g. amd64, x86, etc).

Overlay maintainers tend to play fast and loose by just bumping the ebuild version and calling it a day. The smaller the impact of the overlay, the more they can get away with.

Cynede wrote:
Compared to dantrell I don't want to support OpenRC and focus on beta gnome versions (not stable only).
I don't help gnome team/don't contribute fixes to 3.24 because it's simply out of my interest.
Gnome team don't need any help from me too because by doing all the updating work by myself I often drop some useless for myself patches and sometimes forgot to update some DEPS, I only ensure that it's working on my two machines and review users issues which is not enough to be helpful.

To use what Cynede (sorry Cynede) said as an example, he sometimes forget to update dependencies. I purposely do not bother updating non-critical dependencies unless it is causing an issue or I can sync against an applicable version in the tree. Which is to say, overlay maintainers can cut corners.

Gentoo developers also tend to closely follow upstream. For instance, when GNOME initially dropped ConsoleKit (and by extension, OpenRC) support in favor of systemd that change was reflected in the tree. My overlays maintained support for OpenRC. Which is to say, overlay maintainers don't need to follow upstream.

Cynede wrote:
I have hopes that one day gnome team will have overlay for beta/actual versions of gnome which I will be able to use and contribute there, I don't have any personal conflicts with gnome team and don't want to blame them for speed because everyone is doing it for free and real quality costs a lot.

shadywack wrote:
On this subject as well, THANK YOU to the devs who have gotten the project as far as it is. I'm sure everyone would love to see 3.28 in stable, but I do love Gentoo. I'm impressed by what's available to me and it's by far my favorite distro.

I don't have any issues with the Gentoo GNOME team either and I appreciate the work they have done and still do (except for whoever keeps changing the order dependencies are listed in the ebuilds, please stand up, I just want to talk to you, I swear).

I agree with Cynede that they are doing the best they can with what they have. Overlay maintainers who are ahead of the curve make it look simple but it is not simple (case in point).

That said, the continued existence of Gentoo itself is also something I'm thankful for.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Gentoo developers also tend to closely follow upstream. For instance, when GNOME initially dropped ConsoleKit (and by extension, OpenRC) support in favor of systemd that change was reflected in the tree. My overlays maintained support for OpenRC. Which is to say, overlay maintainers don't need to follow upstream.


That's not fully so, they will be really happy to accept your patches to tree for OpenRC support if you will provide them in good way.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
This is, in my opinion, a lack of willingness to collaborate that makes me sad. Sure working with others will always involve more negotiation and not-have-it-all-your-way, but it is also a skill that we should cherish. In teams we are stronger.

It works both ways.. I mean *that willingness* needs to be demonstrated upwards and downwards, perhaps a bit more so by those on the inside. I seem to agree with everything dantrell says.
I wanted to contribute to gentoo.. but perhaps I rubbed some people off the wrong way due to my ignorance and noobishness. What I got back in return shocked me enough to not try again.
PS: I don't use gnome, but followed this conversation with interest.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

josephg wrote:
What I got back in return shocked me enough to not try again.

You may be shocked too easily then. Each day, users and developers are collaborating via proxy-maint just fine, and there are plenty of users who work with git or ebuilds for the first time, who deliver massively improved contributions after their initial PRs.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saying it must be the users fault (they're too thin skinned, etc) is not the way to get people to want to collaborate.

I've seen where the users are too arrogant, too thin skinned, etc, but I've also seen that same behavior from devs.

It takes a meeting of minds for collaborations to work well, trying to lay it all on the other party hardly ever works well, no matter which party.

This is just my view from setting on the sidelines.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Saying it must be the users fault (they're too thin skinned, etc) is not the way to get people to want to collaborate.

Did I say that? It's impossible to make an assessment without knowing about the failed interaction.

Out of interactions with m people, you will always have an amount of n potential unpleasant ones. You will never be able to ensure perfectly nice behaviour of everyone, even with a supertightly enforced code of conduct, and sometimes it is only perceived negatively. That does not mean you have to stop trying, after all n will be a minority within m, they do not speak for the whole community.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
Saying it must be the users fault (they're too thin skinned, etc) is not the way to get people to want to collaborate.

Did I say that? It's impossible to make an assessment without knowing about the failed interaction.

To be fair, you did kind of imply it by saying:

asturm wrote:
You may be shocked too easily then.

But in my opinion, this is where our thoughts diverge:

asturm wrote:
Out of interactions with m people, you will always have an amount of n potential unpleasant ones. You will never be able to ensure perfectly nice behaviour of everyone, even with a supertightly enforced code of conduct, and sometimes it is only perceived negatively. That does not mean you have to stop trying, after all n will be a minority within m, they do not speak for the whole community.

You see, that's your take on it and objectively speaking, with an ideal world in mind, you are absolutely correct. The problem is that people tend to be subjective and this isn't an ideal world.

The example you illustrated is equivalent to the apple and the barrel analogy. Specifically, "one rotten (or bad) apple spoils the barrel".

You are saying, "just get another apple". That's your worldview. You are entitled to it and I understand it.

But it's not the only worldview. Some are going to say, "just look for an apple in another barrel". Others still, are going to say, "just avoid apples and barrels for a while (or altogether)". And there will definitely be those who will just never look at an apple the same way again.

You can argue that, "it was just one apple". But you have to understand, to some, one is just too much.

P.S. Since you mentioned the vocal minority, please be aware that the silent majority argument is often a logical fallacy.

josephg wrote:
It works both ways.. I mean *that willingness* needs to be demonstrated upwards and downwards, perhaps a bit more so by those on the inside.

Anon-E-moose wrote:
It takes a meeting of minds for collaborations to work well, trying to lay it all on the other party hardly ever works well, no matter which party.

I completely agree that it's a two way street. To call it a meeting of minds is rather apt as it places emphasis on the fact that you often only get one chance to make a first impression.

That first impression can have lasting consequences.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for ignoring your personal quarrels, but back to topic for a while.

asturm wrote:

It seems hard to find people who are ready to contribute back to Gentoo Gnome team, even though these days it is easier than ever to do that.


Leio (the leader of Gentoo-Gnome project) isn't very active in github and has said submissions in bugzilla get faster attention. Now, as a user and contributor, that's not "easy" or practical. Then I also believe gnome has an overlay where its development happens before its pulled into main Gentoo tree. So any contributor would first have to find, test and get a commit access to that overlay.
https://cgit.gentoo.org/proj/gnome.git/

BTW, I know Leio browses these forums, can we get a word from the man himself? :)

What I can say though is that if you join #gentoo-desktop IRC channel, you can get a lot of attention in there, and help the Gnome project.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Juippisi wrote:
Sorry for ignoring your personal quarrels, but back to topic for a while.

Completely understandable but I would say that this is actually a rather civil discussion and that we only seem off topic because the issue is nuanced.

Juippisi wrote:
What I can say though is that if you join #gentoo-desktop IRC channel, you can get a lot of attention in there, and help the Gnome project.

I don't know about that particular channel but I believe IRC in general is still where a lot of Gentoo-related collaboration happens.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Sure working with others will always involve more negotiation and not-have-it-all-your-way, but it is also a skill that we should cherish. In teams we are stronger.
May I emphasize this? Open Source Software mainly lives from people talking to each other.
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