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artbody
Guru
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Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 431
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

war hats
platons cave :D

I think the solution must be a PEACE of WHATEVER between the Dev's and the users.


Let's explain what this PEACE of WHATEVER should do

For the users the most important part is the function without big changes in the normal workflow
For the dev's there are other priorities,


ok and what sort of USERS and DEV'S are there ?
8O Gamer, engineers, book writer, researcher, server admins, musicians ....
Openoffice user :lol:
hardcore developers ... just for fun

so if i'll ask all this people about their opinion
what must be developed that all included users up to the developers get a win win situation

so this PEACE of WHATEVER should monitor a chaotic system
likes unlikes
bugs ...
installations/downloads
...and so on

this looks like a quality management system

now the question is how to integrate such a system

is there something out there what we could use ?
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R0b0t1
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Joined: 05 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
Going back some 12 years or so, when I first installed Gentoo, one of my earliest observations were how isolated the devs kept themselves from the community and how insular the dev community was. Despite Gentoo needing help then, they seemed to do everything they could to dissuade users from becoming devs. There was endless bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy and you were either part of the clique or you were out. That mentality became even more pronounced when a certain group of devs made a large political push in an effort to control Gentoo and force their will on everyone else. Having gained political power, those same devs have abused it the same way their friends in Debian did. This just another natural step on their path.
Part of this is because some of the developers appear to contribute to Gentoo for their livelihood. I suspect most of their income is generated consulting for companies which use Gentoo.

Obviously their positions are less valuable if there are more developers.

However the divide between users and developers is pretty clear in most projects. The users are the unwashed masses that waste the time of the developers. So it may also be with Gentoo, though the technical competency of the userbase is typically higher.
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mv
Watchman
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Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6294

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

R0b0t1 wrote:
However the divide between users and developers is pretty clear in most projects

There is a huge difference between a typical project and a distribution as a whole.
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steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Once the "precedent" has been established, they move ahead swiftly to ensure that other processes are exclusionary of the userbase, too.

The excuse this time being that "we haven't been following our own rules" ("so let's get rid of them".)
saellaven wrote:
Going back some 12 years or so, when I first installed Gentoo, one of my earliest observations were how isolated the devs kept themselves from the community and how insular the dev community was. Despite Gentoo needing help then, they seemed to do everything they could to dissuade users from becoming devs. There was endless bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy and you were either part of the clique or you were out. That mentality became even more pronounced when a certain group of devs made a large political push in an effort to control Gentoo and force their will on everyone else.
Since this is about the past, not the most recent Putsch, I'd just like to confirm what saellaven is saying here.
I've written elsewhere, about how many users told me to "stay away from the developer channels" when I first joined the forums, so that I in fact used IRC to learn #bash long before I ever commented on the developer mailing-list.
saellaven wrote:
Having gained political power, those same devs have abused it the same way their friends in Debian did. This just another natural step on their path.
Yes, it's the usual apparatchik game.
OFC the gentoo ones are way out of their depth when it comes to dealing with RedHatGooglePlex.

Schadenfreude is not something I want to savour in a few years, as Gentoo becomes a dead-end niche. It would be rather hollow when set against the loss of Our Gentoo.
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khayyam
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Joined: 07 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

R0b0t1 wrote:
However the divide between users and developers is pretty clear in most projects. The users are the unwashed masses that waste the time of the developers. So it may also be with Gentoo, though the technical competency of the userbase is typically higher.

R0b0t1 ... this is little more than a meme ... one which functions to foreground developers (doing all the "work"), and background users (wasting developers time). It's nonsense for a variety of reasons: so much depends on users providing Q&A, bug reports, user support, donations, etc, etc ... the absence of which would cause gentoo to implode in no time at all. This meme also functions to undermine the concept of community, because it's the inclusion of new, and inexperienced, users that (though an initial burden on resources ... or as you call it "waste") is the means by which the community develops its resources ... those users may go on to become developers, support other users, etc, etc.

best ... khay
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ulm
Developer
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Joined: 04 Oct 2004
Posts: 92
Location: Mainz, Germany

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Ant P. wrote:
https://www.mail-archive.com/gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org/msg83122.html

Another one.
I see what you mean.
Once the "precedent" has been established, they move ahead swiftly to ensure that other processes are exclusionary of the userbase, too.

The excuse this time being that "we haven't been following our own rules" ("so let's get rid of them".)

GLEP 1 in its original version (2003) had the wording "discussed on gentoo-dev@gentoo.org and/or the Gentoo Linux forums", so it could be posted to either. In practice, very few (if any, at least a quick search produces no results) GLEPs were discussed on the forums. I am not aware of anyone ever complaining about that.

In the context of a 2011 update, that was changed from "and/or" to "and", with the intention that GLEP drafts should always be posted to the mailing list (and matching the established workflow): https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/21796e64595d63f09d64ea1703aa4f2f

Obviously, that wording didn't quite catch the intention, so it was further clarified in the latest update.

Also note that GLEP 1 still says that GLEPs can be posted to the forums in addition to mailing lists: https://gitweb.gentoo.org/data/glep.git/tree/glep-0001.rst#n98

Quote:
That says it all for me, and I don't see the point in commenting further on the Gentoo Putsch, since it has already happened.

Sure.
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