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Morality124
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reading the Gentoo Installation Guide with caveats Reply with quote

Hello. So I've decided to install Gentoo on a new PC project (wanted OpenBSD but it's lacking the hardware I need so I'm putting that on a different, more server-ish project).

Now, I've echoed the following before, but I have no issue with having to learn something more difficult/complex; I welcome challenges. What concerns me is that the installation guide has been sabotaged due to some ulterior motive. Given the current agenda-pushing behind OpenRC, I am worried that some or a lot of the information put forward in the installation guide will be deliberately misleading or inaccurate, given that I can not trust certain developers to act in good faith. There are also some comments I've seen that parts of the guide are a bit dated, which is something I find less objectionable. Bottom-line, I don't mind putting effort into a genuine problem, but drives me nuts is the idea that someone is trying to feed me inaccurate detritus disguised as "best practices" (such as the kind of "standards" being pushed forward by Red Hat), forcing me to spend time after the fact to undo whatever mess that results from it (in other words, being set up for failure, something I've experienced over and over with Microsoft Windows - the idea of undoing a lot stuff brings up bad memories of trying to remove "unremovable" Windows components and other such crap).

With this in mind, is there anything I should look out for in the installation guide? Khay, steveL, Naib, Neddy, depontius, Ant, Zucca, krinn, Anon-E-moose, saellaven... would especially appreciate your input on this.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morality124,

The installation guide is "mostly harmless"

The default last time I looked was OpenRC, then convert to systemd later if that's what you want. That should still work.
There are both openrc and systemd stage3 tarballs now, so it saves the conversion if you pick the right one.

The minimal liveCD does not support a UEFI install, so if you want one of those, don't use it. You can convert later but its a pain.

Since the boot media is only a toolkit to accomplish the install, none of its code goes into the install, you can use any random liveCD you have lying around.
The only caveat is that for a 64 bit install, it needs to provide a 64 bit kernel.

Start with System Rescue CD on a USB stick and take it from there.
Its been a wee while since I've done a new install.
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Morality124
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi again Neddy.

Thanks for your suggestion of System Rescue CD - didn't know they had an x64 version now bundled with the main image, very useful.

Also apologies for the atrocious grammar in the original post. :P
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you know what you're doing, there's the quick install guide. You get the default OpenRC and no submarine opinions.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:53 am    Post subject: Re: Reading the Gentoo Installation Guide with caveats Reply with quote

Morality124 wrote:
With this in mind, is there anything I should look out for in the installation guide? Khay, steveL, Naib, Neddy, depontius, Ant, Zucca, krinn, Anon-E-moose, saellaven... would especially appreciate your input on this.

Morality124 ... I'm famous :) ... honestly, I never refer to the install handbook, I think the last time I did was when '--xattrs' was added for tar'ing the stage3 ... so I can't really attest to what state its in currently. Any clue to that state probably comes as the result of my pondering issues posted on the forum ... and the only issue that comes to mind is python3 (which until recently I'd been avoiding). Other than that, I always ditch {e}udev for mdev, and apply all useflags, masks, etc, before proceeding from stage3.

HTH & best ... khay
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unheatedgarage
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:04 am    Post subject: Re: Reading the Gentoo Installation Guide with caveats Reply with quote

Morality124 wrote:
Given the current agenda-pushing behind OpenRC, I am worried that some or a lot of the information put forward in the installation guide will be deliberately misleading or inaccurate, given that I can not trust certain developers to act in good faith..


Not sure I parse your meaning here--are you saying there's an anti systemd/pro OpenRC push behind the handbook?

Personally, having come from the Ubuntu world over two years ago, and as someone who has done a lot (a LOT) of installs lately, I've never used OpenRC. Granted, the handbook's default is that, but it also provides plenty of links along the way to the systemd articles. My experience has been that it takes jumping through a few painless hoops, but ultimately doing a fresh install with systemd is pretty easy--probably a lot easier than installing with OpenRC and then making the switch afterward.

Gentoo support for systemd is stellar. :)
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Morality124
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

unheatedgarage wrote:
Not sure I parse your meaning here--are you saying there's an anti systemd/pro OpenRC push behind the handbook?


Other-way-around (pointless and sometimes destabilizing changes to OpenRC in order to follow the systemd way of doing things). And was not referring to the handbook per se, but rather the ulterior motives and politics behind some of the developers that have been discussed for some time now; my concern that these agendas will affect the content of the documentation.

Gentoo was my second OS consideration specifically because of it's non-systemd support. OpenBSD was the first (but hardware support became an issue in my case) because Theo De Raadt and his team appear to stick to certain principles and best practices regardless of external pressures (this can be clearly seen during the various Intel security debacles of late).
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morality124 wrote:
Gentoo was my second OS consideration specifically because of it's non-systemd support. OpenBSD was the first (but hardware support became an issue in my case) because Theo De Raadt and his team appear to stick to certain principles and best practices regardless of external pressures (this can be clearly seen during the various Intel security debacles of late).

For people who seek systemd-free platforms, I (again) seriously recommend Alpine and Void: the former for servers, and the latter for desktops.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CasperVector wrote:
Morality124 wrote:
Gentoo was my second OS consideration specifically because of it's non-systemd support. OpenBSD was the first (but hardware support became an issue in my case) because Theo De Raadt and his team appear to stick to certain principles and best practices regardless of external pressures (this can be clearly seen during the various Intel security debacles of late).

For people who seek systemd-free platforms, I (again) seriously recommend Alpine and Void: the former for servers, and the latter for desktops.


Gentoo and OpenBSD are certainly good choices for an operating system. Alpine and Void are good projects but for a person who is attracted by some of the features, such as extensive ports collection, of Gentoo I recommend Calculate-Linux. I currently don't happen to have a (pure) Gentoo running but I have Calculate-Linux running (alongside OpenBSD currrent). Calculate provides a quick and reliable way of getting a systemd-free Gentoo installed; their KDE Plasma desktop is very nice. It's a good option if you want to run mostly stable packages with mostly default USE flags. Of course their documentation is all OpenRC specific. I think the Calculate documentation is quite good. Of course we all know that if you prefer a solid implementation of an up-to-date gnome desktop (as I do) -- without systemd -- then you run OpenBSD.
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Morality124
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your advice et al. :)

My other question is regarding the always present OpenRC version situation. I know there are a lot of posts and topics regarding many different overlay approaches with OpenRC (usually version 0.13 or 0.17) and blocking systemd more effectively. The problem is that this information seems to be scattered throughout several threads and is very hard to consolidate, and even harder to fit in with the installation handbook.

So my next question is, should I use such an overlay approach or just stick with the default situation, and if the former, can I apply said-approach during the Installation Handbook steps or do I have to retroactively apply it after install (I would personally prefer during since after seems very much Windows-like and would seem to have a greater change of being sub-optimal in terms of garbage cleanup).
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morality124,

There are two stage3 tarballs. One with systemd, one with the stable OpenRC of the day.

Do a handbook install using the OpenRC stage3 and avoid a profile with systemd in its name.
If you want to regress OpenRC, you will need an overlay because emerge --sync will remove all the old ebuilds you add to the portage repository.
Overlays are not affected by emerge --sync.

Its your choice when you regress OpenRC. The more things you have installed, the more you risk rebuilding.
Personally, I would do it before I installed a GUI. If you are more comfortable working with a GUI, then its OK to install your GUI first.

You may find Old Fashioned Gentoo Install useful for hints but its really aimed at regressing a lot further than you want to.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morality124 wrote:
My other question is regarding the always present OpenRC version situation.

sys-apps/openrc-0.38.2 works just fine and there is no trace of systemd...

sitquietly wrote:
Calculate provides a quick and reliable way of getting a systemd-free Gentoo installed; their KDE Plasma desktop is very nice.

...and it's all the same with Gentoo.
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Morality124
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
sys-apps/openrc-0.38.2 works just fine and there is no trace of systemd...


For many people systemd "works just fine"; heck many more people say Windows "works just fine". Kind of misses the point doesn't it? I have seen countless threads regarding questionable maintenance and design decisions to OpenRC, enough to raise my concern, and it really is taking advantage of well-meaning people like myself who want to learn best practices to simply write those concerns off with "well it works just fine".

If I was that shallow in my approach, then I would just run whatever is easily installed and works at face value. That's the the kind of attitude that leads to Microsoft inserting malicious crap in the background of Windows, because after all who cares because it "works just fine".

Like I said in my original post:

Quote:
I don't mind putting effort into a genuine problem, but [what] drives me nuts is the idea that someone is trying to feed me inaccurate detritus disguised as "best practices" (such as the kind of "standards" being pushed forward by Red Hat), forcing me to spend time after the fact to undo whatever mess that results from it (in other words, being set up for failure, something I've experienced over and over with Microsoft Windows - the idea of undoing a lot stuff brings up bad memories of trying to remove "unremovable" Windows components and other such crap).


Last edited by Morality124 on Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Morality124
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Morality124,

There are two stage3 tarballs. One with systemd, one with the stable OpenRC of the day.

Do a handbook install using the OpenRC stage3 and avoid a profile with systemd in its name.
If you want to regress OpenRC, you will need an overlay because emerge --sync will remove all the old ebuilds you add to the portage repository.
Overlays are not affected by emerge --sync.

Its your choice when you regress OpenRC. The more things you have installed, the more you risk rebuilding.
Personally, I would do it before I installed a GUI. If you are more comfortable working with a GUI, then its OK to install your GUI first.

You may find Old Fashioned Gentoo Install useful for hints but its really aimed at regressing a lot further than you want to.


Thanks again Neddy. That does clear up the issue of the most optimal time to do OpenRC-related changes. From how you've put it, it sounds like the Installation Handbook does not create a situation that would make it add difficultly towards doing that if I so choose.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morality124 wrote:
If I was that shallow in my approach, then I would just run whatever is easily installed and works at face value. That's the the kind of attitude that leads to Microsoft inserting malicious crap in the background of Windows, because after all who cares because it "works just fine".

The forums are sometimes a good source for paranoia, but that is not what is happening with openrc. Needless to say, you are open to malicious crap for x packages as soon as you don't do your own packaging (or even software writing).
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Last edited by asturm on Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morality124,

There are two choices. Find an old stage3 talball with the openrc you would like, then update everything else.
Use a current stage3 then regress openrc. The latter will be easier.
You will need to remove sys-apps/opentmpfiles and add virtual/tmpfiles to package provided.

That's a lot simpler that several gcc/glibc/other_stuff updates.
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Morality124
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Morality124,

There are two choices. Find an old stage3 talball with the openrc you would like, then update everything else.
Use a current stage3 then regress openrc. The latter will be easier.
You will need to remove sys-apps/opentmpfiles and add virtual/tmpfiles to package provided.

That's a lot simpler that several gcc/glibc/other_stuff updates.


Very clear. Thanks again Neddy!
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