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pun_guin
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Joined: 06 Feb 2018
Posts: 204

Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:50 pm Post subject:

axl wrote:

It's worth noting the article is from 2013.

Still no C11 threads in Windows.

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axl
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Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:50 am Post subject:

NeddySeagoon wrote:

pun_guin wrote:

Microsoft does a lot of things notably better than certain Linux companies today.

Making money is top of that list.
Buying up competitors and either closing them down or assimilating them is in the list too.
Then there is embrace expand extinguish
Lets not forget vendor lock in ...
... and

... but none of them are any reasons to use Microsoft products.

I don't disagree with any of your points. I would put point no3 at the top of the list. That's what affected me most.

But in the top of EVIL corporations... I'll be honest... INTEL is going up there.

this might sound like whataboutism. Sure. But it's not.

It's just incredible blatant things which are .... infuriating. I'm so vulnerable to all variants of spectre and meltdown, and intel wont do a damn thing about it. too big to fail.

for me the intel thing is even more disgusting that microsoft.

we live in an age where _my_ cpu is vulnerable, and prolly yours and his and hers and everybodys. and we just... move alone and pretend there's not a pink elephant in the room.

and will intel do anything about it? not likely.

when you buy a microsoft product, you get what you payed for. we known that for 20 years. or even more.

but intel... it's really really going up there. too big to fail. it pisses me off beyond imagination that i have such cpu's.

I know. it's hypocritical. but really, I hate having to be on those machines now. I tend to use my phone or my tablet or just a pi more and more. just because... intel. too big to fail. I know nobody associated these 2 ideas before, but here they are. A hateful, hateful corporation (intel), and my expectations... crushed.

Last kernel, introduced a new variant of spectre bug. Well, it's bad language to say that, let me try to put it another way (not native english speaker)... uhm, in the last kernel there's a new check to easily see if your machine is vulnerable to spectre type 4. Just 2 kernels ago was spectre type 2 and the other kind... now theres 4 types. took like 2 weeks for this to happen.

And intel is just fine. that pisses me off more than microsoft. But than, on the other hand... what are you gonna do? nothing...

or just rant... u know

steve_v
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Joined: 20 Jun 2004
Posts: 388
Location: New Zealand

Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:32 am Post subject:

axl wrote:

It's just incredible blatant things which are .... infuriating. I'm so vulnerable to all variants of spectre and meltdown, and intel wont do a damn thing about it. too big to fail.

for me the intel thing is even more disgusting that microsoft.

we live in an age where _my_ cpu is vulnerable, and prolly yours and his and hers and everybodys. and we just... move alone and pretend there's not a pink elephant in the room.

and will intel do anything about it? not likely.

Considering that the mechanisims behind spectre etc. are at least in part etched in the silicon, there's very little anyone can do about it besides designing new chips.
Intel has attempted mitigations for CPUs that are not EOL, but there's only so much that can be done in software. They're unlikely to do anything for 10 year old CPUs, for obvious reasons.
There's literally nothing the end-user can do besides apply mitigations as they are released, so the elephant is largely ignored. Go figure.

Consumers want performant x86 processors, Intel and AMD have been racing each other on this and both have thrown security under the bus to achieve it.
Intel just happened to cut a few more corners in the name of speed, and now it's biting them in the ass. I doubt they'll fail, but it's certainly costing them.

If you're using ARM powered devices (android, pi etc.) to avoid spectre-like vulnerabilities, you might want to check the chipsets - some are not as safe as you might think.

Corporations will cut corners if it makes money and they think they can get away with it. It's shit, but that's how it is. Welcome to capitalism.

steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery

Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:35 am Post subject:

axl wrote:

if you lost patience in "a week or a couple" it doesn't say anything about systemd.

however it says something about ignorance.

HungGarTiger wrote:

Attitudes like this are one of the primary reasons why I can’t stand systemd.

axl wrote:

what attitude exactly? it takes time and dedication to learn something new. what is wrong with that?

The systemdbust nub-fanboi attitude that equates disinclination to use systemdbust with: "ignorance" and staid unwillingness to "learn something new", and completely misses the point that learning a new turd still leaves you with a turd.

But really, what Anon said a while back: seriously guy. You come across like a troll; YAF recruit to the systemdbust campaign of bulshytt.
Your argumentation has nothing to back it up, and all you do is spam the topic with post after post, as if the amount of nonsense endorsing systemdbust meant anything other than "oh God, the nubs still haven't got it."

But then, there's one born every microsecond.

steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery

Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:08 am Post subject:

steveL wrote:

It's got to be about what it enables for the end-user.

Tony0945 wrote:

In a true spirit of open source,like GNU, yes. In a corporate environment, only the bottom line matters. All else is just a means to shareholder value. In a corrupt corporation (most today are corrupt) it's about making the CEO's numbers for his bonus and screw shareholder value.

Oh I agree the entire system is corrupt, which is why we get so much crap shoved across all media, and an "economy" of scammers.
Nonetheless, the front-end pretext for the financial shenanigans (multinationals are mechanisms of fraud, eg the Portia/VW case around 2004/5 iirc) is "look what we can do for you".

Ultimately there is an issue of delivery, as with all technology.
Further, if you do not actually add value, within that front-end context, then you will eventually be removed from the pipeline.

If the internet and nowadays mobile telephones, did not enable people to do anything new, we wouldn't be using them.

The same process will eventually win through wrt desktops and other gadgets, as people realize they don't need the middlemen who are only trying to scam us anyway.

Hopefully we'll get a new breed of companies who have "first: do no harm" in their articles of association, led by people who understand:
Stealing tax from your nation is simply treason.

depontius
Advocate

Joined: 05 May 2004
Posts: 3509

Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:37 pm Post subject:

steveL wrote:

Hopefully we'll get a new breed of companies who have "first: do no harm" in their articles of association, led by people who understand:
Stealing tax from your nation is simply treason.

That we've been going for several years of record profits, record executive compensation, along with stagnant wages and increasingly poor customer service, suggests to me that the free market process is broken in the USA. If it weren't broken, the old companies have grown fat enough and stupid enough that new companies would have emerged and started eating their lunches already. Another reason might be "lack of talent", but I really don't believe that one, nor that it's so widespread as to show the results we have.
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proteusx
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Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 338

Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:44 pm Post subject:

depontius wrote:

suggests to me that the free market process is broken in the USA.

What free market?
It is socialism for the gangsters who run the system and slavery for the rest.

depontius
Advocate

Joined: 05 May 2004
Posts: 3509

Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:02 pm Post subject:

proteusx wrote:

depontius wrote:

suggests to me that the free market process is broken in the USA.

What free market?
It is socialism for the gangsters who run the system and slavery for the rest.

The free market we claim to have, so that their actions can seem justified.
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NeddySeagoon
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Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:11 pm Post subject:

depontius, Like feudal England. It was probably the same in other parts of what is now the UK, but since the UK didn't exist at the time ... _________________ Regards, NeddySeagoon Computer users fall into two groups:- those that do backups those that have never had a hard drive fail.

axl
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:12 am Post subject:

steve_v wrote:

axl wrote:

You can _mostly_ go around microshit. I went fine for the last 20 years without. never bumbed heads.

Try living life without intel. I personally can't. I'm surrounded by intel. That was my point. It was nice when I only had to go around microshit. That was easy.

And also, one other point I made, "TOO BIG TO FAIL". Intel is atm. And it shouldn't be. It's not spelled out as such, but, in other situations, other companies would be forced to recall their products. Not intel. I dare not ask why.

axl
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:58 am Post subject:

steveL wrote:

axl wrote:

if you lost patience in "a week or a couple" it doesn't say anything about systemd.

however it says something about ignorance.

HungGarTiger wrote:

Attitudes like this are one of the primary reasons why I can’t stand systemd.

axl wrote:

what attitude exactly? it takes time and dedication to learn something new. what is wrong with that?

I don't know if you are familiar with the concept of an echo chamber. People who are usually in one, cannot realize they are in one.

My life goes on, with or without your acceptance. Computers work just fine with systemd. I have some issues with intel, some with hackers of unspecified nationalities, but never had issue with both systemd or openrc. Not like you. My life goes on. The dogs bark, the bear farts. (is a saying in my language).

My skin is thick. Even if I'm stupid, I don't mind learning something new. And I'm not one of those people that will jump to fight because you called me names. I just don't care. If I think there's a point to be made, I will drop a few words. But if it's totally pointless... I simply won't.

Anon's insult was wrong. I don't repeat. I might hold my point of view, but i rarely repeat the same point. Also the same exact day he was insulting me, he was asking the sort of questions that I knew the answers to, and were the sort of questions that would have helped him to be more systemd independent. So I was like... you can't insult me, and then me just answer your questions.

Also doesn't help if you quote an insult from someone. Come up with your own. You wouldn't want to be accused that in your echo chamber you developed a pack like instinct with other like minded individuals. right? At least I'm being stupid by myself.

PS also, could you pls use generic english in insults. pls? okthxbye

axl
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:00 am Post subject:

steveL wrote:

Tony0945 wrote:

there's a post missing here. was it censored or tony decided to delete it himself? the whole thing just goes out of balance after this point.

Tony0945
Watchman

Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA

Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:20 am Post subject:

axl wrote:

steveL wrote:

Tony0945 wrote:

there's a post missing here. was it censored or tony decided to delete it himself? the whole thing just goes out of balance after this point.

I didn't delete it, but mods have shuffled several threads around lately.

Also recommend that you look at AMD. My last Intel was the 486DX-100. Come to think about it, it was my only intel, before that was the Zilog Z80. I programmed a lot of 8080's and 8086's at work but never owned one.

Intel is a lot faster at single threading, but a lot of that is architecture that REPOTLINE takes away. The rest is faster clock speeds that are due to smaller transistor sizes.

Take a look at the Ryzen 7 2700X and Threadripper. Phoronix has some benchmark comparisons. My only need for speed is compiling where multiple cores (and fast storage) make the big difference. If you are a gamer YMMV, but I think Phoronix has some benchmarks on those too.

axl
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:41 am Post subject:

Tony0945 wrote:

axl wrote:

steveL wrote:

Tony0945 wrote:

there's a post missing here. was it censored or tony decided to delete it himself? the whole thing just goes out of balance after this point.

man... i can't just turn over night. it's like... tons of systems. all these years of trust just... i'm not having a good year.

I never had to have "mitigate" in my vocabulary up until last year. now it's everywhere.

steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery

Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:56 am Post subject:

axl wrote:

I don't know if you are familiar with the concept of an echo chamber.

What do you think?
IOW: this is disingenuous rhetoric, only designed to set the ground for this not-so-veiled insult:

axl wrote:

People who are usually in one, cannot realize they are in one.

Now, before we go any further with this "concept", let's remind ourselves of the context, which you are so good at ignoring:

axl wrote:

what attitude exactly? it takes time and dedication to learn something new. what is wrong with that?

steveL wrote:

Care to respond to the substantive part of the conversation? Ah, that would involve taking on board what's been said. Oh well..

Consider whether "dropping a few words" to "make a point" is what you've been doing throughout this and the prior thread, or whether in fact you have simply used this forum as an echo-chamber for your (well, the usual nonsensical) systemdbust propaganda.

axl wrote:

PS also, could you pls use generic english in insults. pls? okthxbye

Aww poor wikkle baby, having to ask people to insult in terms s/he can understand.. and s/he's obviously just too "aww shucks I'm a bit dumb :p" to know what a loaded question is, never mind type "define: disingenuous" into a browser ^W^W "that likkle box on the phone screen."

Are you sure you want to claim expertise at the same time as pig-ignorance? (difficulties with English are irrelevant to the inability to use a dictionary. Hint, since you're not from an anglophonic country: buy a thesaurus.)
Unusual choice.

In future, if you're going to insult me, at least do not hide it behind passive-aggression, while pretending to be too naive to know what's being said.
Passive-aggression insults the intelligence, however "clever" its practitioners like to believe themselves; here, you insult the intelligence of other users and the moderators both.
Further, you might consider whether you in fact need to insult at all; but then, letting go of passive-aggression requires self-insight, which requires some sort of self-reflection, be that cultural (ie: not white or Caucasian, nor alcoholic) or therapeutic.
Have fun with your shiny new turds; and there will be more (but then from your pov as stated, that's a good thing. [1])
Kthxbye.
--
In case anyone missed it: I did not insult axl; I merely asked him once more to stop already, with the rambling diatribes that ignore everyone else and indeed the factual record -- as have others in this thread (so I linked to the latest, strongest example.)
"Stop already" (or "STFU" used informally, in context), is not an insult; it's an entreaty.
Bit tired of trolls reaching for the "I'm so offended!" button.

[1] The middle-classes make such wonderful marks: they just have to share the con with "selected others", little realising all they are doing is lending credulity to nonsense. And then later, they console themselves with "well everyone else thought so.." until the next Big Thing^W^W shiny turd comes along.

Yes, that's derogatory, but not about you: only about the stated position you keep on taking, in denial of the facts, reasoning and experience.
If you don't like nonsense being "discredited": don't spout it.

NeddySeagoon
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:31 am Post subject:

systemd is a lot like the Kings New Clothes I grew up with the Danny Kay version. It also brings to mind a saying from the Royal Navy when you want to change something that they have been doing for a long time "It was good enough for Nelson" That's not to say that that they won't change, they just need to be convinced. Being an old fart myself, I've seen that "new" only means "different". Only the Marketing department equates new with better, whatever better means. It usually whatever the Marketing department intend, which may change with time too. systemd has Red Hat marketing behind it. Younger readers, who have yet to experience living through and seeing through marketing hype won't relate to that yet. A gentle reminder that the topic here is systemd, not Intel/Spectre/Meltdown. Please use an existing topic for that or start a new one if you can't find a suitable topic. _________________ Regards, NeddySeagoon Computer users fall into two groups:- those that do backups those that have never had a hard drive fail.

axl
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:41 pm Post subject:

steveL wrote:

axl wrote:

I don't know if you are familiar with the concept of an echo chamber.

What do you think?
IOW: this is disingenuous rhetoric, only designed to set the ground for this not-so-veiled insult:

axl wrote:

People who are usually in one, cannot realize they are in one.

Now, before we go any further with this "concept", let's remind ourselves of the context, which you are so good at ignoring:

axl wrote:

what attitude exactly? it takes time and dedication to learn something new. what is wrong with that?

steveL wrote:

axl wrote:

PS also, could you pls use generic english in insults. pls? okthxbye

It seems, we can't agree on some facts. In my country there is a dead poet which used to say: 2 people can look at the same thing and see 2 different things. And it seems to me we're in this position.

We look at systemd and see 2 different things.

Now consider this. The first kernel I ever remember was 2.0.13. Back then we had ipchains instead of iptables. nptl wasn't still invented. there was no wine. no mplayer. hell not even php was invented yet. And all through that time until like 5 years ago I survived just fine with openrc. Since systemd was invented, I had some issues with adopting it. I mentioned many times. But I got through them just fine. SO I would argue i hold true to what I preach. Learn both... choose for yourself. I CAN live in both worlds.

Can you convince me you gave systemd a fair shot? Can you convince me, honestly that you can do it?

axl
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:51 pm Post subject:

NeddySeagoon wrote:

systemd is a lot like the Kings New Clothes
I grew up with the Danny Kay version.

It also brings to mind a saying from the Royal Navy when you want to change something that they have been doing for a long time "It was good enough for Nelson"
That's not to say that that they won't change, they just need to be convinced.

Being an old fart myself, I've seen that "new" only means "different". Only the Marketing department equates new with better, whatever better means.
It usually whatever the Marketing department intend, which may change with time too.
systemd has Red Hat marketing behind it.

Younger readers, who have yet to experience living through and seeing through marketing hype won't relate to that yet.

A gentle reminder that the topic here is systemd, not Intel/Spectre/Meltdown.
Please use an existing topic for that or start a new one if you can't find a suitable topic.

again. looking at the same vase, 2 people see something totally different.

There was news recently about the NSA hack in the kernel. OMG NSA owns us all. You can look at systemd and ONLY see redhat, or, you could see there's others. the fact that debian did it speaks volumes to me. I don't know under which rock you guys have been living under, but debian NEVER adopts new stuff. like ever.

Anyway, going back to the NSA thingie. It was speck. An algorithm to replace AES on systems where AES is not included in cpu. A fast, good, opensource algo ... which yeah... came from the NSA. So what? Is it safe? Go look at the code. Kernel people don't seem to mind it. in fact i think i read "the best according to cryptobenches".

Again, a tangent. But you can look at things at value what they bring to the table... or everything is a conspiracy. and we're doomed forever to stagnation.

axl
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:00 pm Post subject:

Also, this mistrust in systemd, opensources (systemd is fully opensource under gnu), doesn't seem like a natural linux world. Some people will say it's because Redhat. And ok... I can see that. But it's also something else. M$ must be laughing they asses off the flamewars because of systemd. U might want to consider that. And also consider the fact that some of the things you might have known/felt about systemd are from 2013. and we're now in 2018. so you might want to give it a try. just sayin...

NeddySeagoon
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:25 pm Post subject:

axl, It’s fruitless to attempt to indoctrinate a superannuated canine with innovative manoeuvres. and I'm one of those :) More cynically, the functionality that systemd wants to replace has matured over 30 or 40 years. Some of it predates UNIX even. When systemd reaches that level of maturity, maybe I'll give it a try, if I'm still around. Red Hat had a big say in the Debian decision. Again, I'm old and cynical, they are copying Microsoft tactics and design philosophy. I don't see only Red Hat. They are merely the major player. _________________ Regards, NeddySeagoon Computer users fall into two groups:- those that do backups those that have never had a hard drive fail.

axl
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:30 pm Post subject:

NeddySeagoon wrote:

maybe I'll give it a try, if I'm still around.

Maybe u're missing out. OR maybe the old dog is right

Something tells me I have to respect age. And I do. I am not trying to convince you of anything. You already gave me what I wanted.

Tony0945
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Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:38 pm Post subject:

axl wrote:

Now consider this. The first kernel I ever remember was 2.0.13. Back then we had ipchains instead of iptables. nptl wasn't still invented. there was no wine. no mplayer. hell not even php was invented yet.

I remember that too. I'm pretty sure SteveL does and I know that NeddySeagoon does.
Do you remember hal? Corba? and other brain dead Redhat ideas? I've mercifully forgotten most of them.
So systemd is new, so what? What problem does it purport to solve and do I have that problem? If the answer is "no" why should I change?
All I've heard besides a TON of forum support requests is that it boots faster. My newest system takes 11 seconds before the bios screen appears. It takes maybe one more second before the grub prompt appears. It's so short I can't read the BIOS message. I have a 15 second timeout on grub because I have many boot options. From selecting one to the X logon screen appearing is another 16 seconds.
How much of that time could systemd save? Maybe it's significant to you but not to me. I'm used to Windoze(sic). Press the power and go get a cup of coffee before the login screen appears.

axl
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:42 pm Post subject:

Tony0945 wrote:

axl wrote:

well, in perfect virtual environment is more like 2-3 seconds to boot. kvm.

in real world, all the sata autoscan and usb autoscan delays a boot quite a lot.

but in the perfect world (kvm) is like mad fast.

AND NO. not for booting fast. just to avoid overlays. cmon guys u gotta admit, no one wants to fork gentoo. I certainly dont.

EDIT also, not cool in the same post to put linux 2.0 and windoze. just ... not cool bro.

Naib
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:53 pm Post subject:

axl wrote:

NeddySeagoon wrote:

maybe I'll give it a try, if I'm still around.

Maybe u're missing out. OR maybe the old dog is right

Something tells me I have to respect age. And I do. I am not trying to convince you of anything. You already gave me what I wanted.

Let's step back...
What problem is systemD trying to solve, how does it expand use-case capability above and beyond what we have?

Humans are naturally concervative and this is true in all domains ... Mechanical, astrophysics etc... People understand usecases and how to make use of the tools provided. Every now and again something come along in an attempt to upsurp the present way of doing things. It's either because flaws in the present model, limitations of the present model OR its a distruptive technology that can upend the present methodology.

In each case it must meet the present model capability, expand beyond the present capability, open up new use cases AND equally not bring any additional errors.

This is true of all systems and everything is just systems of systems.

So what is systemD trying to solve? How does it meet present use-cases and how does it open up new ways of doing things
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axl
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:10 pm Post subject:

Naib wrote:

So what is systemD trying to solve?

I mentioned this before... No, before going into what systemd is trying to solve, I want to say an anecdote. People can look it up on the forums. It happened like a month ago or so (bad memory with time - dont know when exactly).

Anyway. there was this thread... about systemd... and someone asked how to make systemd not reboot and finish a task before rebooting. That thread gave me pause. It was the right kind of thread/post/attitude/whatever. Made go look for man. documentation. 2 answers were in the end provided, which showed systemd CAN do that task. But man... when the question was asked... it was like: that's a hard question. Have to go look.

So what does systemd do?

Were gonna just not consider boot times and compatibility/overlays.

well, I often said and I'll say it again, binary logging. Might sound like a bad idea but it's freaking great. You get to do things like journalctl --list-boots and journalctl --boot #no.

Also the unified (finally) service manager (Are you guys gonna start with me?) systemctl.

and... this will be controversial... systemd IS controversial. and that is something that linux always had.

OK:) you can obviously ignore point 3. and point 1&2 could be easily interpreted as linux going windows way.

But I will ask again. HOW is systemd even remotely like windows. it's not. I can go into systemd sources and fark up my system. I cannot go into svchost.exe to... nothing. Truth be told I'm comfortable in either openrc or systemd environment. I loose myself and hate being in windows. It's just... no. dont like being there.

If I got the slightest whif of windows from systemd... i wouldn't have been using it.

PS. I know I mentioned point 1 & 2 before. but go lookup linux and gentoo linux on youtube. those 2 points make for a common vocabulary. not for you guru person reading. for new people. people who aren't old dogs like me & u.

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