The Politics of systemd Part 3

axl · Veteran Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 1144 Location: Romania

I'm glad we clarified our differences once again through the use of censorship. Good Job!!!

Naib · Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:49 am Post subject:

asturm · Developer Joined: 05 Apr 2007 Posts: 8936

Yamakuzure · Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:28 am Post subject:

Thank you very much, Neddy, for the Locking of the original thread and the move of certain posts here.

I do not know how others felt, but I certainly needed that "cool-down time" ;-)

saellaven · l33t Joined: 23 Jul 2006 Posts: 646

Shamus397 · Apprentice Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Posts: 218 Location: Ur-th

To me it's fairly simple: a systemd free system means you're not running systemd (as PID 1 or any other). Running eudev or elogind doesn't count, as those are forks and don't rely on systemd to work like the parts they are derived from do. Same goes for gnome, there are people actively working to ensure that it works fine without systemd (coughFuntoocough).

The person whose posts were dumped into this thread is just repeating the tired old shibboleth of 'systemd won, get over it!', and can be pretty much ignored as they are not contributing anything meaningful to the thread (other than yet another objective lesson of the methods used by the systemd promoters).

Naib · Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:53 pm Post subject:

Anon-E-moose · Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:57 pm Post subject:

I run a systemd-free system. I also don't run dbus (as I personally see no use for it).

I do run eudev, but I do have a perfectly valid dev structure underneath the eudev mounted one, so I could go (e)udev free if I so desired.
I don't run elogind as I run neither kde, gnome or any other DE that needs it. If I did I would use it.

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Re axl, all I can do is shake my head, as users like him don't do any other users any good.
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PRIME x570-pro, 3700x, 6.1 zen kernel
gcc 13, profile 17.0 (custom bare multilib), openrc, wayland

Fitzcarraldo · Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:16 pm Post subject:

Anon-E-moose · Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:43 pm Post subject:

Naib · Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:48 pm Post subject:

Fitzcarraldo · Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:16 pm Post subject:

steveL · Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:49 pm Post subject:

tld · Veteran Joined: 09 Dec 2003 Posts: 1816

Naib · Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:05 pm Post subject:

They better include X11Forwarding, I use that daily... XmobaTerm into work Linux box as a simulation machine is too useful. Really don't want an entire desktop being rendered....
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steveL · Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:14 pm Post subject:

depontius · Advocate Joined: 05 May 2004 Posts: 3509

I've had mixed opinions about Wayland.

As some have mentioned, it's freedesktop.org project. When that name first started showing up it seemed like a good idea. As they've accumulated a track record, that idea has gone downhill. On the other hand, some/many of the good old X11 developers seem to be working on it, and they seem to take things like remote display quite seriously. So that side is not bad. The Wayland fanbois are, if anything, at least as obnoxious as systemd fanbois. They don't even seem to understand why anyone would want remote display - in a way they can't seem to get their noses out of games, or something like that.

Then watching the reality of Wayland - they promised to be a blank slate and do things right - get rid of the backward compatible cruft that kept X11 from advancing. This also extended to security, and how X11 can't be secure, but Wayland can move beyond those problems. Then about a year or so back I started seeing Wayland stuff about interactions between screensavers, screen unlockers, screenshot grabbers, and the like. I seem to remember them adding some sort of ugly kludge in order to get that stuff to all work. Throw away the old mistakes, make new ones.

In the meantime, my day job is on CAD software, which isn't moving off of X11 any time soon.
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.sigs waste space and bandwidth

Fitzcarraldo · Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:19 pm Post subject:

tld · Veteran Joined: 09 Dec 2003 Posts: 1816

axl · Veteran Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 1144 Location: Romania

axl · Veteran Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 1144 Location: Romania

so.. you could technically install gentoo with systemd useflag and still not use systemd. technically.

in my opinion, servers don't technically need systemd. they could work without it.

but desktops... it's becoming harder and harder to run a desktop without systemd because peripherals and how they are handled. because of how (at least in gnome) things are moving towards (at some point) mobile devices. 20 years ago linux didn't have "users". it only had sysadmins masquarading as users. u had a linux, u had to administer it yourself. and 20 years ago was a totally different thing. but now...

i freaking hated systemd when it first came out. i didn't know what it was. why it pulled those weird dependencies. what happened to my kernel and my system and my dev. i was so confused and i hated it. but powered on and tried to understand it... and it's not that bad actually, once u get to know it. at this point i'm confident i have enough skills to manipulate and change anything and everything about my init system, may it be openrc or systemd. and i prefer systemd, knowing both of them pretty well.

if you are one of the folks that knows how to manually do in openrc shells to emulate systemd... that's great for you. awesum.

but my original point still stands. I don't think gentoo/gentoo devs should be required to give that. everyone moved to systemd. because hey... now linux has users. who would have known?! and gentoo should keep with the times. that's all i'm saying.

the useflag "openrc" doesn't guaranty you an openrc distro. using the official portage tree you have to know some stuff to make an openrc distro out of gentoo. gentoo doesn't do it for you. especially if you want gnome3. so to say gentoo is an openrc distro is a lie.

the night i first entered in this conversation, I was on a youtube run watching gentoo videos. SO MANY that support that idea. gentoo is the last openrc distro. it's not. it's simply not. even leaving gnome3 aside, there are tons of apps that pull systemd as a dependency and that is because it is. that program uses either this that or the other. I dont expect gentoo devs to make forks out of every single one of those programs just to avoid systemd.

and ultimately why? i can't think of ONE daemon that benefited from openrc shell type file but had to suffer under systemd.

I really don't know / understand what y'all problem is with systemd. i really don't. i'm not trying to be thick or sarcastic. I just don't get it. It's C code that you can read for yourself. Where is the mistrust coming from? Why do people want to get stuck in the 80's with IPC? I honestly don't get it.

Ant P. · Watchman Joined: 18 Apr 2009 Posts: 6920

axl · Veteran Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 1144 Location: Romania

saellaven · l33t Joined: 23 Jul 2006 Posts: 646