The Politics of systemd Part 3

Message

Post by **asturm** » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:37 pm

axl wrote:at this point if you want a systemd free distro, gentoo is not your home.

Multiple systems of mine have no idea what you are talking about.

Post by **NeddySeagoon** » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:37 pm

axl,

Gentoo is LFS with a package manager. You use Gentoo, thats portage and the ebuild repositories you choose, to make your very own distro.

As has already been said, some choices force other choices. Things depending on systemd is only one example.
You might want to use clang as your system compiler. That restricts you to things that will build with clang.
There are many others.

As always, to extend your choice ... patches are welcome. Well, that may not be true. The upstreams also have limited resources, so they may not accept your patch.

axl · Post by **axl** » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:40 pm

asturm wrote:
axl wrote:at this point if you want a systemd free distro, gentoo is not your home.
Multiple systems of mine have no idea what you are talking about.

You wear the tag of a developer. Would you share you personal phone number or email address to hold your claim?

Share upon the other good developer how you accomplished all those miracles. and then have a million people ask you questions. go on. your claim is as good as your personal info. you have to teach people how to do it.

Naib · Post by **Naib** » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:43 pm

axl wrote:
asturm wrote:
axl wrote:at this point if you want a systemd free distro, gentoo is not your home.
Multiple systems of mine have no idea what you are talking about.
You wear the tag of a developer. Would you share you personal phone number or email address to hold your claim?

Share upon the other good developer how you accomplished all those miracles. and then have a million people ask you questions. go on. your claim is as good as your personal info. you have to teach people how to do it.

What are you ranting on about?it is very easy to have a systemd free system. Latest OpenRC, latest kernel latest desktop environment. You are claiming this isn't possible but you offer no proof

Hitchens' razor: the burden of proof or onus in a debate lies with the claim-maker, and if he or she does not meet it, the opponent does not need to argue against the unfounded claim

Post by **NeddySeagoon** » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:44 pm

axl,

You start with the OpenRC stage3 and choose a profile without Gnome or systemd in its name.
Its that easy.

Post by **asturm** » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:44 pm

To demand that from me is as good as demanding proof from a random person that the sky is blue while you're both outside.

axl · Post by **axl** » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:48 pm

If it is so easy... why do you guys need changes in portage tree?

Any of you open rc folks want to post how many custom files they have in /etc/portage to obtain that systemd free system?

i know it can be done. but ... why?

Post by **NeddySeagoon** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:27 pm

Merged above 7 posts out of SystemD free system/gentoo due to the drift towards politics.

Tony0945 · Post by **Tony0945** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:59 pm

In the locked thread Neddyseagoon sid:

Tony0945,

That's where we are today.
Gentoo is portage and the ::gentoo repository. Everything else is upstream.

This fork would be an overlay, much as other derivative distros are overlays rather than forks.

In that case my overlays are the fork. I'll make them public if there is more interest than the five other people that I've counted.
OTOH, if at least three of these five (and I greatly respect the work of all of them in the support topics) would assist me in ebuild update, I'll do it.

krinn · Post by **krinn** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:06 pm

axl wrote:Any of you open rc folks want to post how many custom files they have in /etc/portage to obtain that systemd free system?

Sure, here's my list

Code: Select all

grep -R systemd /etc/portage
/etc/portage/make.conf:INSTALL_MASK="/usr/lib/systemd /etc/systemd /lib/systemd /usr/lib/modules-load.d"
/etc/portage/make.profile/systemd/parent:../../../../../targets/systemd
/etc/portage/make.profile/desktop/plasma/systemd/parent:../../../../../../../targets/systemd
/etc/portage/make.profile/desktop/gnome/systemd/parent:../../../../../../../targets/systemd

Anon-E-moose · Post by **Anon-E-moose** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:16 pm

Tony, I don't mind helping whatever way I can.

Re. axl, et al, I don't run a systemd system at all, and it's not that hard.
I've hard masked openrc at an early version to avoid (hubbs sys-d intrusions) and so far no problems.
I run "-introspection -hal -kde -gnome -pam -consolekit -policykit -systemd -udisks" in make.conf that throws away a lot of sys-d and/or gnome stuff.
My mask is 'INSTALL_MASK="/usr/lib/systemd/"'

I don't run kde as I've never cared for their desktop.
I haven't run gnome since gnome2, as I despise gnome3 desktop.
I don't run any kde or gnome apps as they pull in tons of other libraries and I don't need them, there are alternative progs or earlier versions without the tie-ins.

Having said this, if you want to run gnome, then you'll have to work much harder to get rid of sys-d stuff.
And going forward there's no guarantee that tomorrow gtk+3.* won't try and tie in sys-d.

Tony0945 · Post by **Tony0945** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:40 pm

krinn wrote:Sure, here's my list]

And mine:

Code: Select all

$ grep -r systemd /etc/portage
/etc/portage/package.mask:sys-apps/systemd                        # the arch-enemy
/etc/portage/rsync_excludes:app-admin/systemdgenie/
/etc/portage/rsync_excludes:dev-python/python-systemd/
/etc/portage/rsync_excludes:kde-misc/systemd-kcm/
/etc/portage/rsync_excludes:sys-boot/systemd-boot/
/etc/portage/rsync_excludes:sys-apps/systemd/
/etc/portage/rsync_excludes:sys-apps/systemd-readahead/
/etc/portage/rsync_excludes:sys-apps/systemd-sysv-utils/
/etc/portage/rsync_excludes:sys-apps/gentoo-systemd-integration/
/etc/portage/rsync_excludes:sys-devel/systemd-m4/
/etc/portage/rsync_excludes:sys-process/systemd-cron/
/etc/portage/repos.conf/layman.conf:[nosystemd-overlay]
/etc/portage/repos.conf/layman.conf:location = /var/lib/layman/nosystemd-overlay
/etc/portage/repos.conf/layman.conf:sync-uri = rsync://192.168.0.102/nosystemd-overlay
/etc/portage/make.conf:INSTALL_MASK="${INSTALL_MASK} /etc/systemd /lib/systemd /usr/lib/systemd /usr/lib/modules-load.d"

EDIT:

Code: Select all

 eix -c --installed-from-overlay nosystemd-overlay
[I] sys-apps/portage (2.3.28[1]@06/11/2018): Portage is the package management and distribution system for Gentoo
[I] virtual/udev (217-r2[1]@12/01/2017): Virtual to select between different udev daemon providers

Portage modified to remove all references to systemd. virtual/udev removes udev and adds mdev

Code: Select all

 eix -c --installed-from-overlay oldgentoo
[I] app-admin/hddtemp (0.3_beta15-r27[1]@02/26/2018): A simple utility to read the temperature of SMART capable hard drives
[I] app-office/abiword (2.8.6-r2(2)[1]@04/03/2018): Fully featured yet light and fast cross platform word processor
[I] app-text/scrollkeeper (0.3.14-r2[1]@02/28/2018): Dummy scrollkeeper for testing rarian
[I] app-text/scrollkeeper-dtd (1.0-r10(1.0)[1]@02/28/2018): DTD from the Scrollkeeper package
[I] gnome-extra/gnome-games [1] (2.28.2-r1@07/16/2018): Collection of games for the GNOME desktop
[I] mate-base/caja (1.12.7-r2[1]@04/10/2018): Caja file manager for the MATE desktop
[I] net-fs/samba (4.5.16[1]@07/15/2018): Samba Suite Version 4
[I] net-misc/netifrc (0.2.2[1]@02/04/2018): Gentoo Network Interface Management Scripts
[I] sys-apps/baselayout (2.3[1]@04/03/2018): Filesystem baselayout and init scripts
[I] sys-apps/lm_sensors (3.4.0[1]@07/15/2018): Hardware Monitoring user-space utilities
[I] sys-apps/openrc (0.17[1]@02/04/2018): OpenRC manages the services, startup and shutdown of a host
[I] sys-firmware/radeon-ucode [1] (20161005@07/15/2018): IRQ microcode for r6xx/r7xx/Evergreen/N.Islands/S.Islands Radeon GPUs and APUs
[I] sys-fs/eudev (1.10-r3[1]@07/16/2018): Linux dynamic and persistent device naming support (aka userspace devfs)

scrollkeeper needed by gnome-games, dummy scrollkeeper works fine.

Code: Select all

$ eix -c --installed-from-overlay redhat-free
[I] dev-util/meld (3.18.2[1]@06/23/2018): A graphical diff and merge tool
[I] mate-extra/mate-sensors-applet (1.12.1[1]@04/03/2018): MATE panel applet to display readings from hardware sensors
[1] "redhat-free" /var/lib/layman/redhat-free

Tony0945 · Post by **Tony0945** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:44 pm

Anon-E-moose wrote:Tony, I don't mind helping whatever way I can.

Thanks! I agree wholeheartedly with the rest of your post as well.

Tony0945 · Post by **Tony0945** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:04 pm

Registered freegentoo.org
I will not be bullied by asturm or anyone else.

Post by **asturm** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:19 pm

Tony0945 wrote:I will not be bullied by asturm

If you feel bullied then raise an issue with moderators, otherwise shut up.

Post by **NeddySeagoon** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:20 pm

Tony0945,

Be sure to follow Gentoo name and logo usage guidelines when you bring that site up.

Naib · Post by **Naib** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:24 pm

asturm wrote:
Tony0945 wrote:I will not be bullied by asturm
If you feel bullied then raise an issue with moderators, otherwise shut up.

nice hostility...

wswartzendruber · Post by **wswartzendruber** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:25 pm

Man what the hell...it's an init system...

And a log manager, and some other things...

But geez!

Post by **asturm** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:25 pm

Naib wrote:nice hostility...

Yeah, I don't appreciate slander behind my back.

Naib · Post by **Naib** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:30 pm

wswartzendruber wrote:Man what the hell...it's an init system...

And a log manager, and some other things...

But geez!

for some not using it isn't enough, if you are not constantly denouncing it, you must be supporting it

the pro systemd and the anti-systemd lot are all just as bad as each other and frankly ignoring them is the best option.

wswartzendruber · Post by **wswartzendruber** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:35 pm

It's kind of hard to ignore it when the drama comes spilling into OTW. Besides, I'm on my lunch break and I'm bored. Really bored.

Post by **asturm** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:38 pm

Naib wrote:the pro systemd and the anti-systemd lot are all just as bad as each other and frankly ignoring them is the best option.

I don't see a lot of pro systemd involvement actually.

Naib · Post by **Naib** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:40 pm

asturm wrote:
Naib wrote:the pro systemd and the anti-systemd lot are all just as bad as each other and frankly ignoring them is the best option.
I don't see a lot of pro systemd involvement actually.

I agree with you there

but you know the usuals... if you are not vocally vitriolically dismissing it you must be pro it. for all the whining none of them did anything... the closest there has been in doing anything was the mini-audit I did AND that is saying something

This forum needs a facepalm emote...

Naib · Post by **Naib** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:41 pm

wswartzendruber wrote:It's kind of hard to ignore it when the drama comes spilling into OTW. Besides, I'm on my lunch break and I'm bored. Really bored.

makes a change

still not appreciated interrupting important discussions

Tony0945 · Post by **Tony0945** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:08 pm

NeddySeagoon wrote:Tony0945,

Be sure to follow Gentoo name and logo usage guidelines when you bring that site up.

Thanks Neddy. I'll reference that link too.