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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
pjp wrote:
Comments on or suggestive of interest in a fork seem to have been around for as long as systemd, so the interest seems persistent, though I haven't tracked unique users mentioning it. The idea of a public overlay was to (possibly) satisfy that interest while avoiding a fork (for as long as reasonably possible, since forks seem to introduce their own challenges).


I quite agree. I'd really prefer that Gentoo be systemd free like Funtoo, but with (it seems) a majority of devs promoting systemd that's not going to happen.


I'm not sure it's a majority, I think it's just a very loud minority that have control over one too many packages.

As for funtoo, I do check in on them occasionally, they've gotten gnome to work without systemd.
And they're always an alternative to gentoo, even if they aren't as cutting edge at times.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
pjp wrote:
Comments on or suggestive of interest in a fork seem to have been around for as long as systemd, so the interest seems persistent, though I haven't tracked unique users mentioning it. The idea of a public overlay was to (possibly) satisfy that interest while avoiding a fork (for as long as reasonably possible, since forks seem to introduce their own challenges).


I quite agree. I'd really prefer that Gentoo be systemd free like Funtoo, but with (it seems) a majority of devs promoting systemd that's not going to happen.


Making Gentoo systemd-free would be making a choice for all Gentoo users. That seems to be exactly what Gentoo is NOT all about.

Forking IMO would cause a huge amount of work. The overlay, maybe.

What I was thinking is that the systemd USE flag might do more than it currently does. For example, for any package which has an option to compile in a systemd friendly way, a -systemd would compile out those options where systemd was pulled in, even if that feature is not specifically related to systemd.

I'm not talking about gnome here, or any other package where the upstream devs are enthusiastically gluing their code to systemd. I'm talking about packages that only have a few references and can be easily built without.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
What I was thinking is that the systemd USE flag might do more than it currently does. For example, for any package which has an option to compile in a systemd friendly way, a -systemd would compile out those options where systemd was pulled in, even if that feature is not specifically related to systemd.

You're basically proposing forking Gentoo with the two forks intertwined in portage. Needlessly complicating portage IMHO.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945,

That's where we are today.
Gentoo is portage and the ::gentoo repository. Everything else is upstream.

This fork would be an overlay, much as other derivative distros are overlays rather than forks.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Locked for 24 hours or so.

After a bit of cooling off for everyone and the inflamatory part of the thread moved elsewhere, lets try again.

The missing 7 post are in The Politics of systemd Part 3
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

and unlocked.

Actually unlocked. — JRG
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just in case this was missed in the other thread:
Naib wrote:
oh yer :) I added a link to the gnome commit.

(that link: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/commit/06c357d7819cf2a648e57efe947f5a3cca7d74d2)

Adding to that, Gentoo Gnome team is looking for testers of any elogind-backports to gnome-*/ packages.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Just in case this was missed in the other thread:
Naib wrote:
oh yer :) I added a link to the gnome commit.

(that link: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/commit/06c357d7819cf2a648e57efe947f5a3cca7d74d2)

Adding to that, Gentoo Gnome team is looking for testers of any elogind-backports to gnome-*/ packages.
Commits like that make me feel like I did the right thing when I took over elogind to push it further. :-)

Thanks for sharing!
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:

Three choices:

1. "Relax and enjoy it" - just go with the flow, install systemd and have a compiled RedHat system.

2. Stay static and move more and more packages to local overlay, performing surgery on the ebuilds and patching the source as required. -
This is what I'm doing. Spent about 12 hours Saturday and Sunday updating and patching. The most time was researching why old eudev would no longer compile. Turned out to be a glibc change. Anyone interested PM me for the patch to 1.10.

3. Fork Gentoo - Lincoln said "The nation cannot long endure half slave and half free". The same applies to a distro.
This is the course I've long advocated. I'm volunteering right now to be a helper to any serious rebels. I'd much rather work on a properly designed eudev workalike than patch their stenchy code.


4. Use FreeBSD.

That's the way I'm going. I only have one server left on Gentoo. It's a legacy snowflake server with a dog's breakfast of packages and services installed on it.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

berferd wrote:
4. Use FreeBSD

IOW abandon Linux. Yes, it may come to that. I don't know who maintains FreeBSD. They may succumb also.

EDIT: The wikipedia page is very interesting. However, I do feel I have more control being able to build everything from source.
I'll certainly go there before installing Windows spyware riddled with security holes.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:55 am    Post subject: Re: SystemD free system/gentoo Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Following on from (should)/Can we get rid of systemd ???
Can you have a totally systemd Gentoo system with the freedom to choose any package you want?


To get back on topic, here is my answer: No, you can't choose any package you want.

Upstream has chosen for you, so you can't blame Gentoo for not reverting that for you.
However, there are others who nevertheless try. The "Gnome without systemd" thread is a great example of how this could work.

But then there is always the question about the peremptoriness of such upstream decisions. Let's take Gnome as a parade example: They just committed changes for Mutter to work with elogind. So no systemd needed any more (for Mutter). And IIRC ConsoleKit2 got quite some development in the past few months to catch up with the org.freedesktop.login1 demands that made elogind needed in the first place.

Maybe (just maybe) it will, in the end, not matter whether you have systemd-logind, elogind or ConsoleKit2 installed.

Of course this means that you have to be willing to have at least one of them installed...
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:21 am    Post subject: Re: SystemD free system/gentoo Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Naib wrote:
Following on from (should)/Can we get rid of systemd ???
Can you have a totally systemd Gentoo system with the freedom to choose any package you want?


To get back on topic, here is my answer: No, you can't choose any package you want.

Upstream has chosen for you, so you can't blame Gentoo for not reverting that for you.
However, there are others who nevertheless try. The "Gnome without systemd" thread is a great example of how this could work.

But then there is always the question about the peremptoriness of such upstream decisions. Let's take Gnome as a parade example: They just committed changes for Mutter to work with elogind. So no systemd needed any more (for Mutter). And IIRC ConsoleKit2 got quite some development in the past few months to catch up with the org.freedesktop.login1 demands that made elogind needed in the first place.

Maybe (just maybe) it will, in the end, not matter whether you have systemd-logind, elogind or ConsoleKit2 installed.

Of course this means that you have to be willing to have at least one of them installed...
bingo, we have a winner :twisted:
I think I mentioned it a few times, this is imposed by upstream not gentoo. Its comparable to other upstream choices that limit the end-user choice... KDE without QT for instance "butbutbut I want that choice" ... to bad upstream made use of a framework.

Now comparing QT and Systemd may trigger some people but it does highlight the importance of upstream in the decision and their decision may not align with your views. This doesn't mean Gentoo is limiting your "freedom" nor does it me its enabling the spread of a framework. If you don't like a piece of software using systemd do you know a better place to raise this? UPSTREAM. Could gentoo do something? maybe like ... talk to UPSTREAM... same end-state which is talk to UPSTREAM.
People have responded and done something about being locked to a monolithic framework (instead of just whining about it): elogind consolekit2, eudev all created as a response to a need (artificial or not) driven by systemd and this is great!

the mini-audit actually shows Systemd isn't as prevalent as project FEAR pushed and I would bet money this has nothing to do with gentoo and more to do with applications not wanting to or not needing to hard depend on systemd.

tl;dr you have choice, upstream has choice. Sometimes they align, sometimes they don't. If you don't like that either discuss with upstream, stop using a piece of software or do something instead of whine because whining doesn't actually change anything to align with what you want... That "do something" maybe a fork, maybe submit patches... but it certainly isn't whining on some obscure forum that the vast majority of the world doesn't know of or doesn't care about.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

large amounts of time oO USE="-systemd" gosh... soo much effort...
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
large amounts of time oO USE="-systemd" gosh... soo much effort...

You forget dealing with the blockers and portage insisting that you need to change your use flags.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

berferd wrote:
...systemd and its collateral nonsense on my Gentoo systems...


Reading... how does it work?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
Naib wrote:
large amounts of time oO USE="-systemd" gosh... soo much effort...

You forget dealing with the blockers and portage insisting that you need to change your use flags.
see, I keep hearing that but I have not experienced this. No not wanting systemd but also wanting gnome then yes I can see this but again this is upstream.

I am wondering do people want Gentoo to have nothing associated with systemd? Because so far I am seeing choice except when dictated by upstream.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You forget dealing with the blockers and portage insisting that you need to change your use flags.


Blockers and stuff? I've had systemd masked and turned off in USE flags for over a year and have yet to have anything complain that systemd needs to be enabled. Gnome was never an issue for me, as I stopped using gnome long before systemd came about, as I disliked the way gnome was heading.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't want to argue with you Naib, but I see this almost every time I sync. Now that I have frozen various system packages and just masked ::gentoo on many, it doesn't happen as often. I sync much less often because it's no longer sync and run emerge -auvND @world. I have to do that and exclude some number of packages to play with later.

EDIT:

A common situation is when a package requires an updated virtual like virtual/udev. Then it says that I need to install systemd and sys-fs/udev which requires systemd. I think this is because udev is the first choice in the virtual/udev, but I'm not sure.
I usually spend five to ten hours straightening it out. Mostly to figure out those cryptic portage messages and what they mean. That is my fault for not being a portage guru.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ct85711 wrote:
Quote:
You forget dealing with the blockers and portage insisting that you need to change your use flags.


Blockers and stuff? I've had systemd masked and turned off in USE flags for over a year and have yet to have anything complain that systemd needs to be enabled. Gnome was never an issue for me, as I stopped using gnome long before systemd came about, as I disliked the way gnome was heading.


The same here, I have "-consolekit -dbus -gnome -introspection -pam -policykit -pulseaudio -systemd -udisks -upower" and no blockers for me to deal with,
but I suppose if one did "emerge <some gnome package>" they might encounter blockages, but that's to be expected.

YMMV
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
Don't want to argue with you Naib, but I see this almost every time I sync. Now that I have frozen various system packages and just masked ::gentoo on many, it doesn't happen as often. I sync much less often because it's no longer sync and run emerge -auvND @world. I have to do that and exclude some number of packages to play with later.

EDIT:

A common situation is when a package requires an updated virtual like virtual/udev. Then it says that I need to install systemd and sys-fs/udev which requires systemd. I think this is because udev is the first choice in the virtual/udev, but I'm not sure.
I usually spend five to ten hours straightening it out. Mostly to figure out those cryptic portage messages and what they mean. That is my fault for not being a portage guru.
I should have added... Not saying there isn't some combination of packages and USE.

I keep my system quite simple (good old openbox)
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
I keep my system quite simple (good old openbox)

Mine are Mate. I switched as soon as it was available as I hate the Win 8 look of Gnome3.
My server has lumina which eliminates even more redhat code. I liked lumina when it first came out but I am annoyed by rebuilding my desktop on every revision. Maybe later when the interface stabilizes.

EDIT: The server is usually accessed by ssh. I have a desktop for those few times when I have to physically go to it and run a web browser.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A common situation is when a package requires an updated virtual like virtual/udev. Then it says that I need to install systemd and sys-fs/udev which requires systemd. I think this is because udev is the first choice in the virtual/udev, but I'm not sure.


Now, sys-dev/udev requiring systemd is incorrect; as the ebuild explicitly states NOT systemd. In short udev is a special case, that project got absorbed into systemd. The thing is, the sys-dev/udev package is more split apart from systemd. When you install systemd, you get udev along with it. This is why you can not install both systemd and sys-dev/udev at the same time; as they installing the same thing. Now virtual packages are a special thing, in that they do NOT install any files. Their purpose is more of a general wildcard holder listing of packages that satisfy dependency. The way they are "suppost to work" is as long as once of the listed packages in the virtual package is installed, it should work fine. Now, I've seen that virtuals love to live up to their name of being "special", and frankly is a problem child.

Now the issue that I have seen numerous times, is more of the already installed packages are not updated to noticed a new package also satisfies it's dependencies. A example, would be virtual/udev. It probably was first installed with udev, but you changed to eudev or systemd. Virtual/udev does not know eudev or systemd is installed instead, and complains that it wants udev. The action that ends up resolving this problem is that virtual/udev simply needs to be reinstalled, so that it updates it's information. Afterwards it is perfectly happy until the next change and throws the virtual's world back into chaos and you start back at stage one all over.

Note: This example is not limited to virtuals, and happens with other packages too. Easiest way to work around this issue this issue, is put both the problem child the the other package that will met it's complaint on the same emerge line and portage will happily sort the order out correctly (most times).
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ct85711 wrote:
Virtual/udev does not know eudev or systemd is installed instead, and complains that it wants udev.
No.
virtual/udev is happy with both eudev and udev if you have USE="-systemd", and with systemd if you have USE="systemd" set.

See:
Code:
# (Gentoo) 12:08:50 CHH0711 ~ >
grep -A 2 RDEPEND /usr/portage/virtual/udev/udev-217.ebuild
RDEPEND="
        !systemd? ( || ( >=sys-fs/eudev-2.1.1 >=sys-fs/udev-217 ) )
        systemd? ( >=sys-apps/systemd-217:0 )"
As you can see, eudev is even the primary choice.

Generally all you have to do if a virtual pulls in something you do not want, is to emerge --oneshot what you want instead before that virtual gets pulled. It'll be nice and silent then.

If not, you have messed up your own configuration. A common source for this is to mix stable with keyworded packages. Or to mask newer versions of single packages. Like, if you masked >=sys-fs/eudev-2.0.9999 then of course the virtual/udev will insist on sys-fs/udev. Which will then block with your eudev-2.0.x of course.
... but that would be entirely your fault...
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ct85711 wrote:
Now the issue that I have seen numerous times, is more of the already installed packages are not updated to noticed a new package also satisfies it's dependencies. A example, would be virtual/udev. It probably was first installed with udev, but you changed to eudev or systemd. Virtual/udev does not know eudev or systemd is installed instead, and complains that it wants udev.

Yes, that is the situation. Often portage tells me to remove the -systemd flag. As you say, the system is inconsistent and portage chooses to resolve it by choosing systemd.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Like, if you masked >=sys-fs/eudev-2.0.9999 then of course the virtual/udev will insist on sys-fs/udev. Which will then block with your eudev-2.0.x of course.
... but that would be entirely your fault...
Yes I run eudev-1.10
However I call that a choice, not a fault.
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