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skorefish
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 Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The other is Hubbs controls openrc and he's clearly in sys-d/RH's corner and seemingly wants to marginalize openrc in favor of sys-d.
At least that's my take based on his previous bonehead contributions to openrc.
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so you mean openrc needs another leader. |
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tld
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | Anyway...
So far there is GNOME and Wayland that do depend on systemd that are not optional .... Funtoo were able to provide a stub to permit gnome to function but Wayland? |
Wow...did NOT know that. Wayland...something intended to replace X...has a hard dependency on systemd? That's almost beyond imagination.
Tom |
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Anon-E-moose
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| skorefish wrote: | | Quote: | The other is Hubbs controls openrc and he's clearly in sys-d/RH's corner and seemingly wants to marginalize openrc in favor of sys-d.
At least that's my take based on his previous bonehead contributions to openrc.
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so you mean openrc needs another leader. |
It would be for the best though not likely to happen.
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John R. Graham
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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Gents,
This thread is drifting away from its support roots (albeit in an imminently civil fashion; kudos), so I'm tentatively locking it. If you all think something else support related needs to be said, contact me or any Mod/Admin by the usual methods and we'll work something out.
- John
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skorefish
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:43 pm Post subject: should/Can we get rid of ....part2 |
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Hello,
my tread (should)/Can we get rid of systemd ??? is closed
What can i do now.
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1083748-postdays-0-postorder-asc-start-0.html
Merged this post and all that follow from the "part 2" thread that was created after this one was locked. — JRG
Last edited by skorefish on Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:51 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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NeddySeagoon
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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skorefish,
It can be reopened for on topic posts.
Rather than just reopen it and hope, it would be good to have an on topic post to merge there.
That will steer the thread in the right direction.
To be clear, it would be a merge and unlock.
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NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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skorefish
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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maybe this one:
naib said: | Quote: |
how free of Systemd can a system be? well I do not have it and a large number of users also don't have it so it is possible. However... how many hard-depend on it
USE="wayland" emerge mutter -va
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[ebuild N ] x11-wm/mutter-3.24.4::gentoo USE="introspection udev wayland -debug -gles2 {-test}" INPUT_DEVICES="-wacom" 3,500 KiB
[blocks B ] sys-fs/eudev ("sys-fs/eudev" is blocking sys-apps/systemd-239-r1, sys-apps/gentoo-systemd-integration-7)
[blocks B ] sys-apps/systemd ("sys-apps/systemd" is blocking sys-fs/eudev-3.2.5)
[blocks B ] sys-apps/gentoo-systemd-integration ("sys-apps/gentoo-systemd-integration" is blocking sys-fs/eudev-3.2.5)
[blocks B ] sys-apps/sysvinit ("sys-apps/sysvinit" is blocking sys-apps/systemd-239-r1)
so wayland depends on udev that is linked against systemd WHICH means eudev cannot be used ???
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Is there a solution for this or does this proof we should get rid of systemd
Last edited by skorefish on Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Anon-E-moose
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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I won't post on the thread again if it gets unlocked. 
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asturm
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| There are a lot of packages that do not depend on mutter. |
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NeddySeagoon
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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skorefish,
| skorefish wrote: | | Is there a solution for this or does this proof we should get rid of systemd, cause it hinders our freedom of choise? |
That's an oxymoron. Systemd is a choice. If you were to remove it, it would hinder freedom of choice.
Since that is a political, not technical view, it does not belong in your presently locked thread.
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NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
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skorefish
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | There are a lot of packages that do not depend on mutter. |
Maybe we need some more examples. When i revert to openrc i will post them here
@neddy i removed "cause it hinders our freedom of choise?" |
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Naib
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| skorefish wrote: | maybe this one:
naib said: | Quote: |
how free of Systemd can a system be? well I do not have it and a large number of users also don't have it so it is possible. However... how many hard-depend on it
USE="wayland" emerge mutter -va
.
.
.
[ebuild N ] x11-wm/mutter-3.24.4::gentoo USE="introspection udev wayland -debug -gles2 {-test}" INPUT_DEVICES="-wacom" 3,500 KiB
[blocks B ] sys-fs/eudev ("sys-fs/eudev" is blocking sys-apps/systemd-239-r1, sys-apps/gentoo-systemd-integration-7)
[blocks B ] sys-apps/systemd ("sys-apps/systemd" is blocking sys-fs/eudev-3.2.5)
[blocks B ] sys-apps/gentoo-systemd-integration ("sys-apps/gentoo-systemd-integration" is blocking sys-fs/eudev-3.2.5)
[blocks B ] sys-apps/sysvinit ("sys-apps/sysvinit" is blocking sys-apps/systemd-239-r1)
so wayland depends on udev that is linked against systemd WHICH means eudev cannot be used ???
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Is there a solution for this or does this proof we should get rid of systemd |
just to correct this. There seems to be an interaction with dbus (not udev). Mutter needs dbus+systemd with the Wayland USE flag
Sure one stance is "many other packages" but that isn't why that thread NOR the one I made to stay on topic exists. Gentoo is about choice hence why systemd should stay, but why is this combination calling for systemd is what is odd
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skorefish
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Gentoo is about choice hence why systemd should stay, but why is this combination calling for systemd is what is odd
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one is choosing openrc ,but gets systemd with it... (hard-dependency) = no choice
Gentoo is about choice, so we must get rid of hard dependencies
ok of course one example is not enough. |
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Naib
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| skorefish wrote: | | Quote: | Gentoo is about choice hence why systemd should stay, but why is this combination calling for systemd is what is odd
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one is choosing openrc ,but gets systemd with it... (hard-dependency) = no choice
Gentoo is about choice, so we must get rid of hard dependencies
ok of course one example is not enough. |
Yes and no. Upstream obviously made this decision for some reason and this isn't gentoo's call. Gentoo should not become some anti systemd platform. The choice we have is not using systemd now this does initially appear to mean to not choose/use mutter.
But what if you want mutter+Wayland BUT no systemd? Again this is upstream. First thing that needs to be done is to determine why because this could just be a bug in the ebuild.
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krinn
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| skorefish wrote: | | Quote: | Gentoo is about choice hence why systemd should stay, but why is this combination calling for systemd is what is odd
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one is choosing openrc ,but gets systemd with it... (hard-dependency) = no choice |
Nope you choose openrc and get systemd if you per example want gnome ; but you still have choice to not use systemd and gnome.
Not having systemd choice in gentoo would be a political choice, i would backup this myself, but that's politic, and for another thread then. |
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asturm
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| skorefish wrote: | | Gentoo is about choice, so we must get rid of hard dependencies |
Many choices predetermine other choices. |
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krinn
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | Again this is upstream. First thing that needs to be done is to determine why because this could just be a bug in the ebuild. |
You know upstream is gnome team? Knowing that, i don't think that question need any answer. |
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Naib
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| krinn wrote: | | Naib wrote: | | Again this is upstream. First thing that needs to be done is to determine why because this could just be a bug in the ebuild. |
You know upstream is gnome team? Knowing that, i don't think that question need any answer. |
I know... And there are a few other packages as well . Archdev seem to be sloppy but there is one non-gnome,nin-arch package that also depends on dbus+systemd.
This is upstream choice obviously but it is something to be aware of because this can easily creep into other packages
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Naib
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| skorefish wrote: | | Quote: | Gentoo is about choice hence why systemd should stay, but why is this combination calling for systemd is what is odd
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one is choosing openrc ,but gets systemd with it... (hard-dependency) = no choice
Gentoo is about choice, so we must get rid of hard dependencies
ok of course one example is not enough. |
Just to come back to this because there are two issues here
1) systemd creeping in to places where it wouldn't appear to be needed
This needs to be questioned every time
2) a hard dependancy
This is a fact of development with a given toolchain. What if I said to you I want KDE but without QT, by your logic this is no choice and restriction of end users "freedom". This is a false dichotomy. You are free to choose what to use just like upstream are free to choose what they want. Sometimes they align sometimes they don't.
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skorefish
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:10 am Post subject: |
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1) is easy. It can be considered as a bug or when on purpose it's malicious.
2) i have to think about this one
qt & systemd are both big packages. And yes developers need to have a choice to.
Now about the differences. In the example of kde, only the needed part of qt is installed i suppose.
And i can still install packages that don't depend on qt.
then i see this | Quote: | | "sys-apps/systemd" is blocking sys-fs/eudev-3.2.5 |
Does installing a systemd dependent package break an openrc oriented system?
If the answer is yes, then can i say ?: "We have 2 incompatible versions of linux, a systemd based, and all the other init systems based"
and: "If systemd want's to replace all other init systems and it succeeds there will be only one init system left, bye bye choice..."
so should/Can we get rid of ....? Or is there a way to coexist? |
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khayyam
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | | Systemd is a choice. If you were to remove it, it would hinder freedom of choice. |
| Naib wrote: | | Gentoo is about choice hence why systemd should stay [...] |
NeddySeagoon, Naib, et al ... all things being equal ... but that isn't the case. Choice is not simply a matter of equivalent selection (ie, chocolate or vanilla ice cream), there are, more often, other considerations involved (externalities, etc). The choice to pollute in the water supply upstream is not equivalent to the choice downstream has to drink it, or not.
| NeddySeagoon wrote: | | Since that is a political, not technical view, it does not belong in your presently locked thread. |
Indeed it is ... but systemd is a political, rather than technical, problem.
| Naib wrote: | | Gentoo should not become some anti systemd platform. |
Had to laugh at this ... no, it should roll over and accept systemd's "strict policy" of "push[ing] the distros to standardize on the same components for the base system" ... something which has mostly come to pass because there wasn't much in the way of opposition.
best ... khay |
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skorefish
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Gentoo is about choice hence why systemd should stay [...] |
maybe it can stay, but at least there should be a kind of warning...
Last edited by skorefish on Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Naib
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:32 am Post subject: |
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| khayyam wrote: |
| Naib wrote: | | Gentoo should not become some anti systemd platform. |
Had to laugh at this ... no, it should roll over and accept systemd's "strict policy" of "push[ing] the distros to standardize on the same components for the base system" ... something which has mostly come to pass because there wasn't much in the way of opposition.
best ... khay |
It has not be stated Gentoo should be silent and become another vassal distro. This is not a binary condition of either accept&embrace systemd OR raise walls.
Gentoo offers users the choice whether a user wants systemd or not. Now unfortunately applicications (4 plus one meta) are now depending on systemd and that is 5 too many but what should Gentoo do? Ban them and become barren of systemd? That is an option but there are Gentoo users and developers that do like it and want it so that is driving them away. You may say that is acceptable but then that is imposing your choice onto others. Equally how could that occur? Some glep to say "Gentoo shall block systemd" or equally a glep going the other way "Gentoo shall fully embrace systemd" that isn't Gentoo and I would hope neither would pass
For the forth or fifth time... This is upstream, it is better to push upstream to remove such dependancies and maybe gentoo devs could do that, but users also OR you could not do that and raise objections on a medium that won't be seen by upstream and thus not hinder this spread of dependancy which if left unchecked will start to significantly affect users choice
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skorefish
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Now unfortunately applicications (4 plus one meta) are now depending on systemd and that is 5 too many but what should Gentoo do? |
Making a wiki how explaining the problem for the average user,listing these applications, and explaining how to contact upstream. |
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khayyam
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | Gentoo should not become some anti systemd platform. |
| khayyam wrote: | | Had to laugh at this ... no, it should roll over and accept systemd's "strict policy" of "push[ing] the distros to standardize on the same components for the base system" ... something which has mostly come to pass because there wasn't much in the way of opposition. |
| Naib wrote: | | It has not be stated Gentoo should be silent and become another vassal distro. This is not a binary condition of either accept&embrace systemd OR raise walls. |
Naib ... you've completely missed the point, systemd's "strict policy" makes it so that any non-conformance is tantamount to an "anti systemd platform". So, as far as systemd is concerned, it is entirely a "binary condition" ... but, yet, you somehow think that meaningful opposition would be too extreme an "anti systemd" position. That's was had me laugh.
best ... khay |
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