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R0b0t1
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a link to a study about gun violence which includes a section on the defensive use of guns:
Quote:
Defensive Use of Guns

Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed (Cook and Ludwig, 1996; Kleck, 2001a). Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010). On the other hand, some scholars point to a radically lower estimate of only 108,000 annual defensive uses based on the National Crime Victimization Survey (Cook et al., 1997). The variation in these numbers remains a controversy in the field. The estimate of 3 million defensive uses per year is based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys. The former estimate of 108,000 is difficult to interpret because respondents were not asked specifically about defensive gun use.

A different issue is whether defensive uses of guns, however numerous or rare they may be, are effective in preventing injury to the gun-wielding crime victim. Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was “used” by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies (Kleck, 1988; Kleck and DeLone, 1993; Southwick, 2000; Tark and Kleck, 2004). Effectiveness of defensive tactics, however, is likely to vary across types of victims, types of offenders, and circumstances of the crime, so further research is needed both to explore these contingencies and to confirm or discount earlier findings.

Even when defensive use of guns is effective in averting death or injury for the gun user in cases of crime, it is still possible that keeping a gun in the home or carrying a gun in public—concealed or open carry—may have a different net effect on the rate of injury. For example, if gun ownership raises the risk of suicide, homicide, or the use of weapons by those who invade the homes of gun owners, this could cancel or outweigh the beneficial effects of defensive gun use (Kellermann et al., 1992, 1993, 1995). Although some early studies were published that relate to this issue, they were not conclusive, and this is a sufficiently important question that it merits additional, careful exploration.


In summary, there is good reason to believe that at least as many crimes are prevented by guns as there are reported crimes involving guns. Not all reported crimes result in homicide. The authors suggest that the availability of guns may affect the incidence of violence in other ways. Note that violent crime rates have been compared pre- and post-ban in various countries (the UK and perhaps AU) and found that the type of weapons available did not affect the rate of violent crime, indicating the future research detailed by the authors may end up going the same way.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That may well be, but I don't care whether it's effective or not. It's people's RIGHT to defend themselves. People aren't very effective, on average, at defending themselves with their fists either, but would they dare try to take that right away? Maybe that will be next.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Why am I an obedient drone for having the option to return fire?
Because the facts show that not only does concealed carry increase violent crime but FBI analysis revealed that unarmed civilians are more than 20 times as likely to end an active shooting than are armed civilians
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cokey making sense.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokey wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
Why am I an obedient drone for having the option to return fire?
Because the facts show that not only does concealed carry increase violent crime but FBI analysis revealed that unarmed civilians are more than 20 times as likely to end an active shooting than are armed civilians

Concealed carry does not increase violent crime. That paper goes into model after model...seven I think...about numbers and regressions. Nowhere did I see them ask, "What percentage of these criminals participated in lawful concealed carry?" Without that, all you can establish is useless correlation at best. Except...violent crime is down across the board. Now what you might be able to say is, "places with concealed carry on average saw only 85% the reduction in violent crime," but that's still pretty useless.

And mass shooters generally don't make attempts in places where people can be armed. So it's pretty obvious why concealed carriers don't have much opportunity to intervene.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
cokey wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
Why am I an obedient drone for having the option to return fire?
Because the facts show that not only does concealed carry increase violent crime but FBI analysis revealed that unarmed civilians are more than 20 times as likely to end an active shooting than are armed civilians

Concealed carry does not increase violent crime. That paper goes into model after model...seven I think...about numbers and regressions. Nowhere did I see them ask, "What percentage of these criminals participated in lawful concealed carry?" Without that, all you can establish is useless correlation at best. Except...violent crime is down across the board. Now what you might be able to say is, "places with concealed carry on average saw only 85% the reduction in violent crime," but that's still pretty useless.

And mass shooters generally don't make attempts in places where people can be armed. So it's pretty obvious why concealed carriers don't have much opportunity to intervene.


Have you been involved in a criminal gang? What on earth are you talking about? If you are talking about a paper - Does that apply to actual circumstances? I could write a paper how global warming is connected to CO2, and people will say that is the shit. Papers...lol.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
cokey wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
Why am I an obedient drone for having the option to return fire?
Because the facts show that not only does concealed carry increase violent crime but FBI analysis revealed that unarmed civilians are more than 20 times as likely to end an active shooting than are armed civilians

Concealed carry does not increase violent crime. That paper goes into model after model...seven I think...about numbers and regressions. Nowhere did I see them ask, "What percentage of these criminals participated in lawful concealed carry?" Without that, all you can establish is useless correlation at best. Except...violent crime is down across the board. Now what you might be able to say is, "places with concealed carry on average saw only 85% the reduction in violent crime," but that's still pretty useless.

And mass shooters generally don't make attempts in places where people can be armed. So it's pretty obvious why concealed carriers don't have much opportunity to intervene.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w23510
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that. I'll give you credit for this, however: That paper is a profound step up from that ridiculous Concealed Carry Killers thing you kept posting earlier.

Now, I'm putting my Glock 19 on and I'm going to Fred Meyer. I think I'll eat some sushi there, too. At least, what passes as sushi over here.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokey wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
Why am I an obedient drone for having the option to return fire?
Because the facts show that not only does concealed carry increase violent crime but FBI analysis revealed that unarmed civilians are more than 20 times as likely to end an active shooting than are armed civilians

More miniskirt rape. Since there are like 800 unarmed civilians for every one that's carrying, you just made HIS point, not yours. That means that each civilian who carries is 40 times more effective against an active shooter. You tried to make an ass of him, but because you're not half as smart as think you are, you made an ass of yourself instead.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been avoiding this thread but I can no longer. You've pushed me over the top!

Bones McCracker wrote:
miniskirt rape.

I presume you mean this by analogy to gun violence?

It sounds ridiculous because it is ridiculous. The analogy doesn't work. The gun is carried by the perpetrator, and is a tool used in commission of the violence. Whereas the miniskirt is worn by the victim, not the perpetrator.

To make an analogy of this flawed analogy,
    gun violence is to miniskirt rape as dildo rape is to teeshirt with a target on it.
See the difference?

I'm not taking any sides in this argument/thread. But I would like to see more intelligent discourse. Please find a better analogy if you want to pursue this kind of argument.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Akkara wrote:
I've been avoiding this thread but I can no longer. You've pushed me over the top!

Bones McCracker wrote:
miniskirt rape.

I presume you mean this by analogy to gun violence?

It sounds ridiculous because it is ridiculous. The analogy doesn't work. The gun is carried by the perpetrator, and is a tool used in commission of the violence. Whereas the miniskirt is worn by the victim, not the perpetrator.

To make an analogy of this flawed analogy,
    gun violence is to miniskirt rape as dildo rape is to teeshirt with a target on it.
See the difference?

I'm not taking any sides in this argument/thread. But I would like to see more intelligent discourse. Please find a better analogy if you want to pursue this kind of argument.
If I may, I've been observing the indigenous peoples for quite a while... I believe when the context is "gun violence," the translation of "miniskirt rape" is indication that the miniskirt did not cause the rape in the same way that the gun did not cause the gun violence.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Akkara wrote:
I've been avoiding this thread but I can no longer. You've pushed me over the top!

Bones McCracker wrote:
miniskirt rape.

I presume you mean this by analogy to gun violence?

It sounds ridiculous because it is ridiculous. The analogy doesn't work. The gun is carried by the perpetrator, and is a tool used in commission of the violence. Whereas the miniskirt is worn by the victim, not the perpetrator.

To make an analogy of this flawed analogy,
    gun violence is to miniskirt rape as dildo rape is to teeshirt with a target on it.
See the difference?

I'm not taking any sides in this argument/thread. But I would like to see more intelligent discourse. Please find a better analogy if you want to pursue this kind of argument.

You miss the point. The analogy is perfect BECAUSE it doesn't make quite sense. You are being too analytical and not artistic enough. The second level of interpretation is that its sheer stupidity is supposed to grate on your nerves (like it did). And that's what references to "gun violence" do to any rational person -- grate on their nerves. But, let this not distract too much from the main point:
Quote:
Since there are like 800 unarmed civilians for every one that's carrying, you [cokehabit] just made HIS point, not yours. That means [if active shooters are stopped by unarmed civilians 20 times more often than concealed carriers, as you [cokehabit] say] that each civilian who carries is 40 times more effective against an active shooter. You [cokehabit] tried to make an ass of him, but because you're not half as smart as think you are, you made an ass of yourself instead.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like we can reset the counter 'x days without a mass shooting'.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

“While we in New Jersey have some of the strictest gun laws in the country,” Porrino said, “the penalties on the federal side for gun offenses are often stiffer and there is not parole in the federal system.”

As tight lipped as the press and politicians are being, a wager that the perps were Felons in Possession is probably in order. Of course Stop and Frisk is not possible either, just go after the law abiding, not the actual criminals (potential demographic) ...

I think it was the mayor that let it slip that he thought this was a neighborhood level dispute. That translates to gang activity.


Last edited by flysideways on Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably not felons in possession
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2018/06/art_all_night_trenton_shooting.html

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2008/10/trenton_woman_gets_10_years_fo.html

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2010/08/gangster_leader_gets_seven_mor.html

Felon in Possession

If no one cares to enforce laws and sentencing, ...
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
That may well be, but I don't care whether it's effective or not. It's people's RIGHT to defend themselves. People aren't very effective, on average, at defending themselves with their fists either, but would they dare try to take that right away? Maybe that will be next.
True. I support the second amendment on my belief of its merits alone. However I think it is useful to point out the one major alleged detraction - that it serves no immediate purpose - is false.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Yes, that. I'll give you credit for this, however: That paper is a profound step up from that ridiculous Concealed Carry Killers thing you kept posting earlier.

Now, I'm putting my Glock 19 on and I'm going to Fred Meyer. I think I'll eat some sushi there, too. At least, what passes as sushi over here.
Do you feel unsafe?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
cokey wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
Why am I an obedient drone for having the option to return fire?
Because the facts show that not only does concealed carry increase violent crime but FBI analysis revealed that unarmed civilians are more than 20 times as likely to end an active shooting than are armed civilians

More miniskirt rape. Since there are like 800 unarmed civilians for every one that's carrying, you just made HIS point, not yours. That means that each civilian who carries is 40 times more effective against an active shooter. You tried to make an ass of him, but because you're not half as smart as think you are, you made an ass of yourself instead.
Actually it shows that guns are unneeded for ending shootings
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokey wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
Yes, that. I'll give you credit for this, however: That paper is a profound step up from that ridiculous Concealed Carry Killers thing you kept posting earlier.

Now, I'm putting my Glock 19 on and I'm going to Fred Meyer. I think I'll eat some sushi there, too. At least, what passes as sushi over here.
Do you feel unsafe?

Not inherently. Do you feel unsafe from injury when you put a seat belt on?

EDIT: Unless you're talking about the sashimi in the sushi. I trust they know what they're doing.
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Last edited by wswartzendruber on Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some protection please, officer!
EDIT : What I am saying is, I like having some self protection without being convicted from using it. Not necessarily an A-15. Over the top...over the top. Still, having the right to protect your home is OK within my holy book.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
cokey wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
Yes, that. I'll give you credit for this, however: That paper is a profound step up from that ridiculous Concealed Carry Killers thing you kept posting earlier.

Now, I'm putting my Glock 19 on and I'm going to Fred Meyer. I think I'll eat some sushi there, too. At least, what passes as sushi over here.
Do you feel unsafe?

Not inherently. Do you feel unsafe from injury when you put a seat belt on?

EDIT: Unless you're talking about the sashimi in the sushi. I trust they know what they're doing.
I put a seatbelt on because I am legally required to but I probably still would. It sounds like you carry a gun "just in case". Knowing that everyone had guns concealed around me would make me pretty jumpy. It must be a weird experience.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...then we will come to the same...SAME point again - What is the alternative? It's way more kills by the law and (new) order. My last word
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokey wrote:
Bones McCracker wrote:
cokey wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
Why am I an obedient drone for having the option to return fire?
Because the facts show that not only does concealed carry increase violent crime but FBI analysis revealed that unarmed civilians are more than 20 times as likely to end an active shooting than are armed civilians

More miniskirt rape. Since there are like 800 unarmed civilians for every one that's carrying, you just made HIS point, not yours. That means that each civilian who carries is 40 times more effective against an active shooter. You tried to make an ass of him, but because you're not half as smart as think you are, you made an ass of yourself instead.
Actually it shows that guns are unneeded for ending shootings

By your deficient brainwaves, police are unneeded because violent criminals stop when they die of old age. Toilet paper is unneeded because shit falls out of your ass-crack after it dries and forms flakes.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
cokey wrote:
Bones McCracker wrote:
cokey wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
Why am I an obedient drone for having the option to return fire?
Because the facts show that not only does concealed carry increase violent crime but FBI analysis revealed that unarmed civilians are more than 20 times as likely to end an active shooting than are armed civilians

More miniskirt rape. Since there are like 800 unarmed civilians for every one that's carrying, you just made HIS point, not yours. That means that each civilian who carries is 40 times more effective against an active shooter. You tried to make an ass of him, but because you're not half as smart as think you are, you made an ass of yourself instead.
Actually it shows that guns are unneeded for ending shootings

By your deficient brainwaves, police are unneeded because violent criminals stop when they die of old age. Toilet paper is unneeded because shit falls out of your ass-crack after it dries and forms flakes.
If your deficient brainwaves thinks so then it must be true!

Or it could be that unarmed people are stopping shootings. Just a thought... :roll:
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