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flysideways
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The propensity to kill is to some extent bounded by social norms. There will always be some who just will, regardless of their surroundings. The choice of means is subject to many variables.

But on the subject of guns killing, there is sparse data that compares the number of guns required for a single murder. The Guardian approached this a while back, sort of. They used this UNODOC data.

Using that data to compare the use of guns in different countries will challenge some stereotypes.

In Japan, regularly touted as the panacea, there are 64,545 guns per gun murder.

The US, the most horrible place on earth, has 29,521 guns per gun murder.

Our friends to the south, Mexico has 1370 guns per gun murder. Think about that. It takes 21 times more guns in the US to kill someone than it does in Mexico. Or, put another way, in Mexico, someone with a gun is 21 times more likely to kill you than an American with a gun.

More? In El Salvador it only takes 163 guns to to cause a gun murder. They are 121 times more likely ...... well, you may get the idea.

Now our constrained cousins across the pond do fare better, some moreso than others.

Luxembourg, they have 23,333 guns per gun murder, fewer than the US, even though they have that twisted barrel revolver sculpture.

The Belgians, 25,714 guns per gun murder. Yup, more likely to be killed by a gun in Belgium than the US.

Now England and Wales are starting to get it, they have 82,926 guns per gun murder.

Germany? There it takes 158,227 guns to cause a gun murder.

The least effective or most civil guns are found in France, it takes 542,857 guns to cause 1 gun murder. It would appear that the average French citizen really does respect the life of another. More than half a million guns before the first murder. A German gun is about 3.5 times more murderous than a French gun.

Carry on ...


Last edited by flysideways on Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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flysideways
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Left out the Netherlands, 9,272 guns per gun murder. A gun there is more than 3 times as likely to kill you than a gun in the US.
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flysideways
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Norway has France beat at 700,000 guns per gun murder.

Of course in Canada it only takes 57,500 guns to have a gun murder. Why are their guns such savages?

Cognitive dissonance got your tongue?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess we can conclude that you guys are not very good at making deadly guns. No wonder your gun manufactures go bankrupt and your military has to license foreign designed guns.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Bones McCracker wrote:
The US has more gun deaths because we have more guns
Cool! An American who admits the obvious! :)
So you agree that fewer guns lead to fewer gun deaths. Mission accomplished! :lol:
Bones McCracker wrote:
Europe has more genocide deaths.
Only because the brits invented the concentration camps. Unfortunately that concept became quite popular. But luckily it died out a few decades ago.

(Before somebody gets ideas, Guantanamo is a prison and not a concentration camp.)

Of course. Fewer guns, then, ceteris parabus, probably fewer gun deaths (people deaths in which the people used guns).

However:

1. all other things never remain equal, particularly when you interdependent variables, so the point is moot (as the studies have shown); by the way, did your world wars fit into anybody's steady-state equation for minimizing gun deaths? How about the Holocaust? Oh, wait; the holicaust was fine, from a "gun deaths" perspective. I forgot. Because the Jews didn't have guns. You know who else took guns away? Stalin and Mao. How about the billion killed by Communism? Wait, I forgot; that was for global peace and brotherhood.

2. Fuck the .0001% peacetime difference; we're keeping the guns anyway, to preserve our individual and collective liberty, so fuck off and go fight global warming by eating less broccoli or something.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh boy, you make yourself look so dense, it is actually really funny! :lol:

Your liberty is nothing. You are just an obedient tool, a happy slave of fear, nothing else. :lol:
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:

2. Fuck the .0001% peacetime difference; we're keeping the guns anyway, to preserve our individual and collective liberty, so fuck off and go fight global warming by eating less broccoli or something.


Actually guns might be the best thing to ever happen. The more people getting killed, the better for the environment. It's how I usually end discussions with vegans. How they safe the world and all, while it's pretty clear I think, that eating humans is far more effective.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Oh boy, you make yourself look so dense, it is actually really funny! :lol:

Your liberty is nothing. You are just an obedient tool, a happy slave of fear, nothing else. :lol:
Says the person who lives in a country that will throw him in jail for free speech.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Oh boy, you make yourself look so dense, it is actually really funny! :lol:

Your liberty is nothing. You are just an obedient tool, a happy slave of fear, nothing else. :lol:

Why do you hate logic and rational discourse? Oh wait, I already know: because your position is irrational and purely emotional.

You are the collectivist-authoritarian, my friend, and you have no argument to support your position that does not boil down to (a) submit as a drone to the global ant-farm, or; (b) magic space daddy says so. I, on the other hand, am the one advocating the preservation of the basic individual human right to defend one's self and one's fellows.

So you've got it completely bacward -- it is YOU who are the obedient tool, and you don't even know it. This should be clear to you by your own broken logic: a silly ad hominem attack and an unsupported assertion which, as I have just very clearly demonstrated, is 180 degrees out from reality.

You've simply been programmed to knee jerk when you hear trigger words like "Liberty", so that you are unable to stop and consider for yourself whether there might be some sense to what's being said. You are opposed to human rights, and you can't explain why without babbling utter nonsense. And, you aren't even capable of thinking, "hey, am I?", even for a moment. Think about it.

Also, given where you come from, one would hope you people might have learned something about collectivist-authoritarianism and the importance of protecting individual rights, but I guess you lot are just destined to be a herd of one color vs. another, as opposed to human beings.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why am I an obedient drone for having the option to return fire?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a link to a study about gun violence which includes a section on the defensive use of guns:
Quote:
Defensive Use of Guns

Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed (Cook and Ludwig, 1996; Kleck, 2001a). Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010). On the other hand, some scholars point to a radically lower estimate of only 108,000 annual defensive uses based on the National Crime Victimization Survey (Cook et al., 1997). The variation in these numbers remains a controversy in the field. The estimate of 3 million defensive uses per year is based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys. The former estimate of 108,000 is difficult to interpret because respondents were not asked specifically about defensive gun use.

A different issue is whether defensive uses of guns, however numerous or rare they may be, are effective in preventing injury to the gun-wielding crime victim. Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was “used” by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies (Kleck, 1988; Kleck and DeLone, 1993; Southwick, 2000; Tark and Kleck, 2004). Effectiveness of defensive tactics, however, is likely to vary across types of victims, types of offenders, and circumstances of the crime, so further research is needed both to explore these contingencies and to confirm or discount earlier findings.

Even when defensive use of guns is effective in averting death or injury for the gun user in cases of crime, it is still possible that keeping a gun in the home or carrying a gun in public—concealed or open carry—may have a different net effect on the rate of injury. For example, if gun ownership raises the risk of suicide, homicide, or the use of weapons by those who invade the homes of gun owners, this could cancel or outweigh the beneficial effects of defensive gun use (Kellermann et al., 1992, 1993, 1995). Although some early studies were published that relate to this issue, they were not conclusive, and this is a sufficiently important question that it merits additional, careful exploration.


In summary, there is good reason to believe that at least as many crimes are prevented by guns as there are reported crimes involving guns. Not all reported crimes result in homicide. The authors suggest that the availability of guns may affect the incidence of violence in other ways. Note that violent crime rates have been compared pre- and post-ban in various countries (the UK and perhaps AU) and found that the type of weapons available did not affect the rate of violent crime, indicating the future research detailed by the authors may end up going the same way.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That may well be, but I don't care whether it's effective or not. It's people's RIGHT to defend themselves. People aren't very effective, on average, at defending themselves with their fists either, but would they dare try to take that right away? Maybe that will be next.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Why am I an obedient drone for having the option to return fire?
Because the facts show that not only does concealed carry increase violent crime but FBI analysis revealed that unarmed civilians are more than 20 times as likely to end an active shooting than are armed civilians
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cokey making sense.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokey wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
Why am I an obedient drone for having the option to return fire?
Because the facts show that not only does concealed carry increase violent crime but FBI analysis revealed that unarmed civilians are more than 20 times as likely to end an active shooting than are armed civilians

Concealed carry does not increase violent crime. That paper goes into model after model...seven I think...about numbers and regressions. Nowhere did I see them ask, "What percentage of these criminals participated in lawful concealed carry?" Without that, all you can establish is useless correlation at best. Except...violent crime is down across the board. Now what you might be able to say is, "places with concealed carry on average saw only 85% the reduction in violent crime," but that's still pretty useless.

And mass shooters generally don't make attempts in places where people can be armed. So it's pretty obvious why concealed carriers don't have much opportunity to intervene.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
cokey wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
Why am I an obedient drone for having the option to return fire?
Because the facts show that not only does concealed carry increase violent crime but FBI analysis revealed that unarmed civilians are more than 20 times as likely to end an active shooting than are armed civilians

Concealed carry does not increase violent crime. That paper goes into model after model...seven I think...about numbers and regressions. Nowhere did I see them ask, "What percentage of these criminals participated in lawful concealed carry?" Without that, all you can establish is useless correlation at best. Except...violent crime is down across the board. Now what you might be able to say is, "places with concealed carry on average saw only 85% the reduction in violent crime," but that's still pretty useless.

And mass shooters generally don't make attempts in places where people can be armed. So it's pretty obvious why concealed carriers don't have much opportunity to intervene.


Have you been involved in a criminal gang? What on earth are you talking about? If you are talking about a paper - Does that apply to actual circumstances? I could write a paper how global warming is connected to CO2, and people will say that is the shit. Papers...lol.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
cokey wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
Why am I an obedient drone for having the option to return fire?
Because the facts show that not only does concealed carry increase violent crime but FBI analysis revealed that unarmed civilians are more than 20 times as likely to end an active shooting than are armed civilians

Concealed carry does not increase violent crime. That paper goes into model after model...seven I think...about numbers and regressions. Nowhere did I see them ask, "What percentage of these criminals participated in lawful concealed carry?" Without that, all you can establish is useless correlation at best. Except...violent crime is down across the board. Now what you might be able to say is, "places with concealed carry on average saw only 85% the reduction in violent crime," but that's still pretty useless.

And mass shooters generally don't make attempts in places where people can be armed. So it's pretty obvious why concealed carriers don't have much opportunity to intervene.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w23510
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that. I'll give you credit for this, however: That paper is a profound step up from that ridiculous Concealed Carry Killers thing you kept posting earlier.

Now, I'm putting my Glock 19 on and I'm going to Fred Meyer. I think I'll eat some sushi there, too. At least, what passes as sushi over here.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokey wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
Why am I an obedient drone for having the option to return fire?
Because the facts show that not only does concealed carry increase violent crime but FBI analysis revealed that unarmed civilians are more than 20 times as likely to end an active shooting than are armed civilians

More miniskirt rape. Since there are like 800 unarmed civilians for every one that's carrying, you just made HIS point, not yours. That means that each civilian who carries is 40 times more effective against an active shooter. You tried to make an ass of him, but because you're not half as smart as think you are, you made an ass of yourself instead.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been avoiding this thread but I can no longer. You've pushed me over the top!

Bones McCracker wrote:
miniskirt rape.

I presume you mean this by analogy to gun violence?

It sounds ridiculous because it is ridiculous. The analogy doesn't work. The gun is carried by the perpetrator, and is a tool used in commission of the violence. Whereas the miniskirt is worn by the victim, not the perpetrator.

To make an analogy of this flawed analogy,
    gun violence is to miniskirt rape as dildo rape is to teeshirt with a target on it.
See the difference?

I'm not taking any sides in this argument/thread. But I would like to see more intelligent discourse. Please find a better analogy if you want to pursue this kind of argument.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Akkara wrote:
I've been avoiding this thread but I can no longer. You've pushed me over the top!

Bones McCracker wrote:
miniskirt rape.

I presume you mean this by analogy to gun violence?

It sounds ridiculous because it is ridiculous. The analogy doesn't work. The gun is carried by the perpetrator, and is a tool used in commission of the violence. Whereas the miniskirt is worn by the victim, not the perpetrator.

To make an analogy of this flawed analogy,
    gun violence is to miniskirt rape as dildo rape is to teeshirt with a target on it.
See the difference?

I'm not taking any sides in this argument/thread. But I would like to see more intelligent discourse. Please find a better analogy if you want to pursue this kind of argument.
If I may, I've been observing the indigenous peoples for quite a while... I believe when the context is "gun violence," the translation of "miniskirt rape" is indication that the miniskirt did not cause the rape in the same way that the gun did not cause the gun violence.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Akkara wrote:
I've been avoiding this thread but I can no longer. You've pushed me over the top!

Bones McCracker wrote:
miniskirt rape.

I presume you mean this by analogy to gun violence?

It sounds ridiculous because it is ridiculous. The analogy doesn't work. The gun is carried by the perpetrator, and is a tool used in commission of the violence. Whereas the miniskirt is worn by the victim, not the perpetrator.

To make an analogy of this flawed analogy,
    gun violence is to miniskirt rape as dildo rape is to teeshirt with a target on it.
See the difference?

I'm not taking any sides in this argument/thread. But I would like to see more intelligent discourse. Please find a better analogy if you want to pursue this kind of argument.

You miss the point. The analogy is perfect BECAUSE it doesn't make quite sense. You are being too analytical and not artistic enough. The second level of interpretation is that its sheer stupidity is supposed to grate on your nerves (like it did). And that's what references to "gun violence" do to any rational person -- grate on their nerves. But, let this not distract too much from the main point:
Quote:
Since there are like 800 unarmed civilians for every one that's carrying, you [cokehabit] just made HIS point, not yours. That means [if active shooters are stopped by unarmed civilians 20 times more often than concealed carriers, as you [cokehabit] say] that each civilian who carries is 40 times more effective against an active shooter. You [cokehabit] tried to make an ass of him, but because you're not half as smart as think you are, you made an ass of yourself instead.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like we can reset the counter 'x days without a mass shooting'.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

“While we in New Jersey have some of the strictest gun laws in the country,” Porrino said, “the penalties on the federal side for gun offenses are often stiffer and there is not parole in the federal system.”

As tight lipped as the press and politicians are being, a wager that the perps were Felons in Possession is probably in order. Of course Stop and Frisk is not possible either, just go after the law abiding, not the actual criminals (potential demographic) ...

I think it was the mayor that let it slip that he thought this was a neighborhood level dispute. That translates to gang activity.


Last edited by flysideways on Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably not felons in possession
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