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Jaglover
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And clubs. I just read somewhere a club was used to kill.
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desultory
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokey wrote:
desultory wrote:
Ban cornstarch. Ban flour.
Why not legalise drink driving? :roll:
So, just let me see if I have the logic straight here, you seek an absolute prohibition on a class of abusable substances, and when confronted with the reality that the class of such abusable substances is broader than you had apparently accounted for, your reaction is suggest that prohibitions on a certain type of abuse of a different class of substances would be the equivalent to not attempting to prohibit all of the substances of the class which you had sought a prohibition upon? Would it not make more sense to regulate against abuses of the class of substances which you had proposed an absolute prohibition on instead of attempting to ban them utterly?
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mass shooting in Texas and it doesn't fit what we're (those of us paying attention) used to. Despite...

1. Having occurred during Ramadan.
2. Leaving explosives everywhere.
3. Actually engaging the police (instead of immediately offing himself).
4. Having that stoned look on his face.

...this doesn't appear to be terror related. I'm really not used to seeing mass shooters actually confront police. What's different about this guy? Why did he not off himself like all the others at the first sign of resistance?
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A young psychopath.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
A young psychopath.

He's more than that: He forces us to reasses how active shooters behave. School shooters have, until now, never willfully engaged armed resistance.

They've been getting more and more brazen in the past two years. The Oregon community college attack put guns right outside buildings, Parkland put them in the same campus, and now we have a new record: Willful engagement.

This isn't as easy as it used to be. Maybe the medications have changed.
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cokey
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
A young psychopath.
Isn't it the ability of the young and the psychopaths to get hold of these weapons the problem?

If you can't keep them out of their hands by means of rules then you should keep them out of their hands by way of lack of opportunity
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cokey
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Instead of arming teachers they should arm students. If more guns are the only answer to guns and students are mathematically 40:1 more likely to meet another student, then surely the logical answer is to arm the students instead.
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R0b0t1
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
I've been thinking about this, and best thing I can come up with is:

1. Armed police at every school.
2. Kick in the door of anyone who even jokes about this online. If they are found to be a prankster, then they are charged with a misdemeanor.
3. Anyone expelled from high school cannot legally purchase a rifle until the age of 21 as opposed to 18.
Number three infringes the second ammendment rights of an individual.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

R0b0t1 wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
I've been thinking about this, and best thing I can come up with is:

1. Armed police at every school.
2. Kick in the door of anyone who even jokes about this online. If they are found to be a prankster, then they are charged with a misdemeanor.
3. Anyone expelled from high school cannot legally purchase a rifle until the age of 21 as opposed to 18.
Number three infringes the second ammendment rights of an individual.
how so? the 2nd doesn't state the type of firearm. they can have a 9mm pistol
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

R0b0t1 wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
I've been thinking about this, and best thing I can come up with is:

1. Armed police at every school.
2. Kick in the door of anyone who even jokes about this online. If they are found to be a prankster, then they are charged with a misdemeanor.
3. Anyone expelled from high school cannot legally purchase a rifle until the age of 21 as opposed to 18.
Number three infringes the second ammendment rights of an individual.
won't they just get their parent's, grandparent's, friend's, co-worker's etc rifles and start shooting anyway? Surely the long-term solution is to make it nigh impossible for these people to get their hands on these weapons? Opportunity has to be a factor in these types of crimes.
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokey wrote:
Muso wrote:
A young psychopath.
Isn't it the ability of the young and the psychopaths to get hold of these weapons the problem?

If you can't keep them out of their hands by means of rules then you should keep them out of their hands by way of lack of opportunity

Obviously, he'd have just used something else, like the various home-made bombs he had been experimenting with. Or, he'd pliw a car into a crowd of people. There is only one viable solution: put chips in their heads.
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby kid has crush on girl, she humiliates him in front of class. People laugh at him. He kills them. Too much porn, first-person shooters, violent movies, processed food, and social media.
Quote:
Sadie Rodriguez, the mother of Shana Fisher, 16, who was killed in the attack, told the Los Angeles Times that her daughter rejected four months of aggressive advances from Dimitrios Pagourtzis, 17, who is in jail accused of murdering 10 people early on Friday at the high school in Santa Fe.

Fisher finally stood up to him and embarrassed him in class, the newspaper quoted her mother as writing in a private message to the Times.

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1IL0D9
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
cokey wrote:
Muso wrote:
A young psychopath.
Isn't it the ability of the young and the psychopaths to get hold of these weapons the problem?

If you can't keep them out of their hands by means of rules then you should keep them out of their hands by way of lack of opportunity

Obviously, he'd have just used something else, like the various home-made bombs he had been experimenting with. Or, he'd pliw a car into a crowd of people. There is only one viable solution: put chips in their heads.
It's easier to run from knives and cars and not get hit. People also find it easier to survive.

Opportunity is also key, if you make it more difficult then he may think twice. If you make them have to plan more they may not go through with it. I can imagine that would reduce things like this substantially.

For people who want to go out in a blaze of glory, putting more weapons in hands it logically just makes it more desirable
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Opportunity's got little to do with it. The opportunity to mow people down in a car is so high, it takes skill and concentration to not do it.
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokey wrote:
It's easier to run from knives and cars and not get hit. People also find it easier to survive.
Yeah, right. Tell that to the over 500 people killed or injured by truck violence in Nice.
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokey wrote:
Instead of arming teachers they should arm students. If more guns are the only answer to guns and students are mathematically 40:1 more likely to meet another student, then surely the logical answer is to arm the students instead.


we all know knives or cars can have the same effect. So give them cars armed with knives.
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
R0b0t1 wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
I've been thinking about this, and best thing I can come up with is:

1. Armed police at every school.
2. Kick in the door of anyone who even jokes about this online. If they are found to be a prankster, then they are charged with a misdemeanor.
3. Anyone expelled from high school cannot legally purchase a rifle until the age of 21 as opposed to 18.
Number three infringes the second ammendment rights of an individual.
how so? the 2nd doesn't state the type of firearm. they can have a 9mm pistol
The second amendment doesn't limit itself to any particular type of arms. Any limitation on the private ownership of military materiel (e.g. explosives, chemical weapons, fissile material, etc.) is an infringement. There is also no limitation as to the type of firearm so all arms are protected.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not so sure about that. When was the last time you saw somebody "bearing" a cannon or warship. They were the heavy armament of the day and couldn't be "borne", so why choose that phrasing? I can think of dozens of alternatives: utilize, possess, employ, exercise, wield, maintain, etc.

Why "bear", if you envisioned it including things like cannon and warships? They were in a hurry? Fuck it, close enough?
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
I'm not so sure about that. When was the last time you saw somebody "bearing" a cannon or warship. They were the heavy armament of the day and couldn't be "borne", so why choose that phrasing? I can think of dozens of alternatives: utilize, possess, employ, exercise, wield, maintain, etc.

Why "bear", if you envisioned it including things like cannon and warships? They were in a hurry? Fuck it, close enough?
There are people who try to argue that the amendment should be interpreted literally, giving the citizenry the right to physically hold guns and nothing more. But, considered in the larger context the "right to hold guns" is for the preservation of the democratic republic: if there were no associated right to own guns, then when the time came to hold them there would be no guns to hold.

If the exercise of a right is surrounded by legislation which is too onerous to comply with then courts have found that the right has been de facto infringed. (Note that this test doesn't apply to most laws restricting weapon ownership. They directly restrict weapon ownership via feature, license, waiting period, etc.)

Further, if a militia is to defend against a nation state, it must be capable of owning the weapons used by nation states. Likewise for citizenry wishing to depose its own government. Those who say that firearms alone would be of dubious use against government forces are not necessarily wrong. However this is not a good argument for further limitations to the second amendment, as citizens are not on even footing only because of blatant disregard for the second amendment.


I think bear is a fine verb. Just as your right to the pursuit of happiness does not guarantee you happiness, your right to bear armaments does not guarantee you armaments. They both say that the government shall not infringe the possession of either. And if I have no right to make or trade, then what right have I to own?
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, that's all good, and maybe you've got a point there, but what about what cokey said. He says it's for the greater good of the people of a civilized nation if only their government is allowed to have dangerous weapons, so they can't hurt each other. That sounds pretty smart, don't you think? I mean, come on: it's the greater good, man. How you gonna argue against the greater good. Do you hate facts, science and logic? And he's British, and they know what they're talking about.
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
Opportunity's got little to do with it. The opportunity to mow people down in a car is so high, it takes skill and concentration to not do it.
Opportunity IS key with the school shootings. They WANT people to know who's doing it and they want people to be running from them and they often want to be shot by the police. Running people over takes out two of those. With a knife you may get away with stabbing one or two people or even 3 or 4 but by then everyone has run away and stabbing victims survive 9 out of 10 times
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
cokey wrote:
It's easier to run from knives and cars and not get hit. People also find it easier to survive.
Yeah, right. Tell that to the over 500 people killed or injured by truck violence in Nice.
434 injured actually. That was a tightly packed promenade, not a school.

Also the "what about cars or knives" argument is moot in the gun control argument because guns, cars and knives logically makes it easier to kill people than just cars and knives. Take one of the three away to make life safer, I don't care which one.
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Make Life Safer."

Life is not, and never has been "safe." And to expect governments to "make life safer" is naivety in the extreme. Governments do not make people safer, they make people less safe.
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
"Make Life Safer."

Life is not, and never has been "safe." And to expect governments to "make life safer" is naivety in the extreme. Governments do not make people safer, they make people less safe.
Just because it cannot be 100% safe doesn't mean you shouldn't try and make it from 50% to 80% safer.

Naivety is expecting your puny handguns to be able to take out a US tank if it decided to roll down your street. If you use the evil government argument at least do it right by saying RPGs, Planes, Apache helicopters and other military grade equipment should be legal because that is what it would take to stop the US government
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
Okay, that's all good, and maybe you've got a point there, but what about what cokey said. He says it's for the greater good of the people of a civilized nation if only their government is allowed to have dangerous weapons, so they can't hurt each other. That sounds pretty smart, don't you think? I mean, come on: it's the greater good, man. How you gonna argue against the greater good. Do you hate facts, science and logic? And he's British, and they know what they're talking about.
Perhaps allowing the private ownership of dangerous things outweights any immediate loss of life? If every time the public's rights were infringed people shot back soon there would be no one willing to undertake the work of destroying liberty. "Just doing your job" does not remove guilt.

Equating potential loss of life with loss of life is a fallacy. Perhaps giving everyone the means to defend themselves and putting them on equal footing lowers the incidence of violence? Perhaps the threat of violence against the government leads to fairer, more just policy? Perhaps there are issues in society that will not be solved by the restriction on the ownership of weapons?

cokey wrote:
Old School wrote:
"Make Life Safer."

Life is not, and never has been "safe." And to expect governments to "make life safer" is naivety in the extreme. Governments do not make people safer, they make people less safe.
Just because it cannot be 100% safe doesn't mean you shouldn't try and make it from 50% to 80% safer.

Naivety is expecting your puny handguns to be able to take out a US tank if it decided to roll down your street. If you use the evil government argument at least do it right by saying RPGs, Planes, Apache helicopters and other military grade equipment should be legal because that is what it would take to stop the US government


R0b0t1 wrote:
Further, if a militia is to defend against a nation state, it must be capable of owning the weapons used by nation states. Likewise for citizenry wishing to depose its own government. Those who say that firearms alone would be of dubious use against government forces are not necessarily wrong. However this is not a good argument for further limitations to the second amendment, as citizens are not on even footing only because of blatant disregard for the second amendment.
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