Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
Gentoo's attitude, vs Arch
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next  
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Gentoo Chat
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Tony0945
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 2577
Location: Illinois, USA

PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

M. you don't have to use but you should support it in the ebuild, because a majority of users do.
The same attitude would ignore OpenRC and s6 because the dev used systemd.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
M
Guru
Guru


Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 432

PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Tony0945 Sure, I agree that was a valid bug report. I also wanted to try lumina because it sounds and looks very interesting.
But if it didn't work with first dev, try to find another that cares and understand that issue, that likes lumina etc. Post bug reports, ping, chat, there are many ways.

Anything is better then to be offended, you had good and valid proposal, and you give up. And you maybe didn't even understood each other because of language barrier, or something that "sounds" insulting is not something he wanted to say. Non "native/english" speakers usually handle 2,3 languages, but not that good, native speakers usually handle just that one and are easily offended if it doesn't "sound" right.
I seen that many times, but actually everybody meant good, without any bad intention. Just patience, explain the problem if it is not clear, relax, nothing good can happen if you think bad. If your idea fails, ok, maybe it was not that good. There are no enemies here :)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
asturm
Developer
Developer


Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 6449
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
I'd be very surprised if 90%+ of gentoo users don't use xdm or gdm or kdm or slim. I'm aware that some people just start X with startx, but I'm sure most just use startx as an an installion/debugging tool.
A dev should know that.

Absolutely not. A dev that is not the maintainer of the package is just a user of that package like you, only with commit rights. You can not assume universal knowledge of all things libraries, databases, desktops etc.
_________________
backend.cpp:92:2: warning: #warning TODO - this error message is about as useful as a cooling unit in the arctic
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
berferd
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 13 May 2004
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Knowing about display managers is hardly obscure for an experienced Linux user, and I would certainly expect it of someone who was blessed with commit rights to work on a Linux distribution. In any case, all devs should know that the little red tag gives additional weight to their words, and that they should therefore strive to be professional when communicating. However, my experiences on bugzilla are like Naib's. I'm struggling to remember any positive interaction on bugs.gentoo.org.

I had to give up on GDM because Lennart. Haven't found a good replacement yet. I was excited about Tony0945's bug 'cause that DM looked promising. Alas, it has gone South, as he reports.

English is my second language, but to me the used of "supposed" clearly implies that the speaker does not believe what you are stating or proposing. I also agree this is likely an ESL moment, and that the Russian keyboard layout should've been a dead giveaway.

Roflcopters all 'round when the Australian guy asks the receptionist for rubbers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
asturm
Developer
Developer


Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 6449
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

berferd wrote:
Knowing about display managers is hardly obscure for an experienced Linux user, and I would certainly expect it of someone who was blessed with commit rights to work on a Linux distribution.

Running a desktop environment is neither typical for a Gentoo installation nor is it part of the dev quiz. It's why we have teams that loosely align to package categories. No one does everything.

berferd wrote:
English is my second language, but to me the used of "supposed" clearly implies...

Thankfully, some native speakers have cleared that up already not to be the case. It is up to your interpretation and in Tony0945's case it seems to be affected by a negative bias.

berferd wrote:
However, my experiences on bugzilla are like Naib's. I'm struggling to remember any positive interaction on bugs.gentoo.org.

That is rather unbelievable, but it is also not what I understood from Naib's post. Rather that he stopped working on it because of *some* bad interaction.
_________________
backend.cpp:92:2: warning: #warning TODO - this error message is about as useful as a cooling unit in the arctic
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
berferd
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 13 May 2004
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:

Thankfully, some native speakers have cleared that up already not to be the case. It is up to your interpretation and in Tony0945's case it seems to be affected by a negative bias.


I bow to your superior English knowledge.

asturm wrote:

That is rather unbelievable, but it is also not what I understood from Naib's post. Rather that he stopped working on it because of *some* bad interaction.


What's that supposed to mean? Are you accusing me of lying?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
szatox
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Posts: 1697

PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

berferd wrote:
asturm wrote:

That is rather unbelievable, but it is also not what I understood from Naib's post. Rather that he stopped working on it because of *some* bad interaction.


What's that supposed to mean? Are you accusing me of lying?
Hold on a minute, I'm getting a pool of jelly and some popcorn so we can enjoy the show better.
Dude, why so defensive? Stating a different opinion is not a crime yet.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tony0945
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 2577
Location: Illinois, USA

PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

berferd wrote:
Roflcopters all 'round when the Australian guy asks the receptionist for rubbers.


"rubbers" meaning condoms.
"rubbers" meaning rubber overshoes designed to preotect expensive shoes from the elements.
"rubbers" as in "grafting rubbers" meaning strips of rubber band material used to hold scion and understock together when grafting plants.
"rubbers" meaning rubber bands (I may have picked this up from an Aussie couple I used to work with).

Obviously the joke is the first meaning. :-)
Is there another uniquely Australian meaning?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yamakuzure
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 2225
Location: Bardowick, Germany

PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

berferd wrote:
I'm struggling to remember any positive interaction on bugs.gentoo.org.
Look, if you do not remember any positive interaction, than it might be that you add to that a bit yourself?

I just searched bugs.gentoo.org for my mail address, and found 299 bugs from the past 9 years. I can not remember any really negative interaction.

You see, this works both ways. And from what I can read here, you seem a bit spoiling for a fight...
_________________
Important German:
  1. "Aha" - German reaction to pretend that you are really interested while giving no f*ck.
  2. "Tja" - German reaction to the apocalypse, nuclear war, an alien invasion or no bread in the house.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naib
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 5433
Location: Removed by Neddy

PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
berferd wrote:
I'm struggling to remember any positive interaction on bugs.gentoo.org.
Look, if you do not remember any positive interaction, than it might be that you add to that a bit yourself?

I just searched bugs.gentoo.org for my mail address, and found 299 bugs from the past 9 years. I can not remember any really negative interaction.

You see, this works both ways. And from what I can read here, you seem a bit spoiling for a fight...


On the whole I agree. Generally if you raise a bug then the herd or package maintainer act on it in a civil manner (that's what i mean to be professional.... You don't have to be paid to behave professionally)
Looking over all my bugs there was the one I mentioned and one other (a dev essentially went "it works for me so of you can't be bothered to provide exact steps why should I be bothered" even though 3 other devs confirmed the issue and agreed with the fix)
_________________
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter
Great Britain is a republic, with a hereditary president, while the United States is a monarchy with an elective king
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yamakuzure
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 2225
Location: Bardowick, Germany

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
a dev essentially went "it works for me so of you can't be bothered to provide exact steps why should I be bothered" even though 3 other devs confirmed the issue and agreed with the fix
That is one of the worst-case scenarios one could experience and very bad behavior. There might have been a good reason to not accept the fix (as-is), but not explaining that (in a civil manner) is not only unprofessional, it is unacceptable! :-(

I have had situations in the past where I couldn't reproduce a specific bug. That is rare, but can happen. I then ask for information about how to reproduce that. But even if I can not reproduce erroneous behavior of a piece of software, it at least challenges me to find out why.

Just dismissing something someone else has put effort in without further notice is pathetic.
_________________
Important German:
  1. "Aha" - German reaction to pretend that you are really interested while giving no f*ck.
  2. "Tja" - German reaction to the apocalypse, nuclear war, an alien invasion or no bread in the house.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tony0945
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 2577
Location: Illinois, USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Just dismissing something someone else has put effort in without further notice is pathetic.

And, unfortunately typical. The case I cited was not the only bug I filed and I know other people have also had that experience. I read about it a lot before filing my first bug, but I dismissed it as an aberration. Now I know that professional response is the aberration.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naib
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 5433
Location: Removed by Neddy

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Naib wrote:
a dev essentially went "it works for me so of you can't be bothered to provide exact steps why should I be bothered" even though 3 other devs confirmed the issue and agreed with the fix
That is one of the worst-case scenarios one could experience and very bad behavior. There might have been a good reason to not accept the fix (as-is), but not explaining that (in a civil manner) is not only unprofessional, it is unacceptable! :-(

I have had situations in the past where I couldn't reproduce a specific bug. That is rare, but can happen. I then ask for information about how to reproduce that. But even if I can not reproduce erroneous behavior of a piece of software, it at least challenges me to find out why.

Just dismissing something someone else has put effort in without further notice is pathetic.

https://bugs.gentoo.org/137000#c29
_________________
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter
Great Britain is a republic, with a hereditary president, while the United States is a monarchy with an elective king
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tony0945
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 2577
Location: Illinois, USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very good example, Naib. If it's one person listing the bug that the dev can't reproduce that's one thing, but stubborn denial in the face of multiple reports is quite another.

And a little politeness is the rejection would go a long way. When I see a dev complaining about the time he's spending on gentoo bugs, it's time for him to quit.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jonathan183
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 13 Dec 2011
Posts: 288

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I first started using gentoo I had a few issues including getting genkernel to work. At the time the handbook did not contain a warning about having a valid /etc/fstab entry before running genkernel. I raised a bug for the handbook to be updated to give a warning to have valid /etc/fstab before running genkernel. I think there were about 6 responses which included have we really got a problem with genkernel and the final one closing the bug with a smart ass comment about the bug being between the keyboard and chair ... which put me off raising a bug for a long time.

I try to help on the forums and the wiki - hopefully sometimes I help ... I doubt I have raised more than 3 bugs mainly as a result of that initial interaction. I'm sure I raised a few more bugs using Arch because the response I got was quite different. The initial interaction can have quite an effect on the impression people get and how they interact in future ...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John R. Graham
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 10091
Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonathan183 wrote:
When I first started using gentoo I had a few issues including getting genkernel to work. At the time the handbook did not contain a warning about having a valid /etc/fstab entry before running genkernel. I raised a bug for the handbook to be updated to give a warning to have valid /etc/fstab before running genkernel. I think there were about 6 responses which included have we really got a problem with genkernel and the final one closing the bug with a smart ass comment about the bug being between the keyboard and chair ... which put me off raising a bug for a long time.
Really not trying to be too critical here but in the Handbook, back in 2009, didn't the /etc/fstab setup instructions precede the kernel build instructions? I think they did (they sure do now) and, if so, this could be legitimately construed as PEBKAC. If the Handbook allowed for every variation and contingency it would be several multiples bigger and correspondingly hard to maintain.

- John
_________________
I can confirm that I have received between 0 and 499 National Security Letters.


Last edited by John R. Graham on Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tony0945
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 2577
Location: Illinois, USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
jonathan183 wrote:
When I first started using gentoo I had a few issues including getting genkernel to work. At the time the handbook did not contain a warning about having a valid /etc/fstab entry before running genkernel. I raised a bug for the handbook to be updated to give a warning to have valid /etc/fstab before running genkernel. I think there were about 6 responses which included have we really got a problem with genkernel and the final one closing the bug with a smart ass comment about the bug being between the keyboard and chair ... which put me off raising a bug for a long time.
Really not trying to be too critical here but in the Handbook, back in 2011, didn't the /etc/fstab setup instructions precede the kernel build instructions? I think they did (they sure do now) and, if so, this could be legitimately construed as PEBKAC. If the Handbook allowed for every variation and contingency it would be several multiples bigger and correspondingly hard to maintain.

- John

But surely there was no need for the wisecrack?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John R. Graham
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 10091
Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Surely not. But you're still here; I'm still here, too. I don't mind finding out how to contribute and contributing. A lot of Gentoo developers are young. I'm not going to let the occasional adolescent wisecrack prevent me from contributing and, as I have said before, I haven't found it generally to be particularly hard.

I'm going to need to correct myself, though:
John R. Graham wrote:
Really not trying to be too critical here but in the Handbook, back in 2009, didn't the /etc/fstab setup instructions precede the kernel build instructions? I think they did (they sure do now) and, if so, this could be legitimately construed as PEBKAC. If the Handbook allowed for every variation and contingency it would be several multiples bigger and correspondingly hard to maintain.
Actually the fstab setup instructions follow the kernel build instructions but, at that point in the Handbook, /boot should already be mounted and thus "genkernel --install" will work just fine. So with that technical correction, I'll stand by the rest of my comment. Sorry for the error, though.

- John
_________________
I can confirm that I have received between 0 and 499 National Security Letters.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yamakuzure
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 2225
Location: Bardowick, Germany

PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Yamakuzure wrote:
Naib wrote:
a dev essentially went "it works for me so of you can't be bothered to provide exact steps why should I be bothered" even though 3 other devs confirmed the issue and agreed with the fix
Just dismissing something someone else has put effort in without further notice is pathetic.

https://bugs.gentoo.org/137000#c29
That is a great example and very good educational material about: "How to not do it".
_________________
Important German:
  1. "Aha" - German reaction to pretend that you are really interested while giving no f*ck.
  2. "Tja" - German reaction to the apocalypse, nuclear war, an alien invasion or no bread in the house.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
C5ace
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 23 Dec 2013
Posts: 234
Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
berferd wrote:
Roflcopters all 'round when the Australian guy asks the receptionist for rubbers.


"rubbers" meaning condoms.
"rubbers" meaning rubber overshoes designed to preotect expensive shoes from the elements.
"rubbers" as in "grafting rubbers" meaning strips of rubber band material used to hold scion and understock together when grafting plants.
"rubbers" meaning rubber bands (I may have picked this up from an Aussie couple I used to work with).

Obviously the joke is the first meaning. :-)
Is there another uniquely Australian meaning?


"rubbers" meaning erasers (usually used for rubbing off misspelled words and pencil marks from writing paper).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
krinn
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 6814

PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm about to say the obvious, but in my bugs i have seen:
* a dev always happily helping me (by helping me i'm not speaking about giving help, but handling properly the issue, if my bug is mark notabug because it wasn't one, then marking it notabug i consider this as helping me)
* a dev always denying helping me
* a dev sometimes helping, sometimes not

And all this because? dev are human.
So it's no big surprise some dev are asses, some dev are quiet cool, and the asses sometimes are helpful (in good mood), and the cool ones are sometimes bore (unhelpful).

Also the problem in bugzilla is that you cannot edit your message (unlike forum), and you cannot revert back your mistake. Which mean it's perfectly ok to speak in forum when drunk, far less in bugzilla :)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
khayyam
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6066
Location: Room 101

PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
And all this because? dev are human. So it's no big surprise some dev are asses, some dev are quiet cool, and the asses sometimes are helpful (in good mood), and the cool ones are sometimes bore (unhelpful).

krinn ... so why have a CoC at all? You set criteria for acceptable/unacceptable behaviour so that everyone knows what's expected of them, and so that when it comes to bad actors they can't claim the judgement is arbitrary should action be taken against them.

krinn wrote:
Also the problem in bugzilla is that you cannot edit your message (unlike forum), and you cannot revert back your mistake. Which mean it's perfectly ok to speak in forum when drunk, far less in bugzilla :)

Heheh ... drunk at kbd should probably be in the guidelines ;)

best ... khay
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tony0945
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 2577
Location: Illinois, USA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C5ace wrote:
"rubbers" meaning erasers (usually used for rubbing off misspelled words and pencil marks from writing paper).

Ah! We learn something new every day. The rubbers as shorthand for rubber bands I may have gotten from the English.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
steveL
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5122
Location: The Peanut Gallery

PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
Also the problem in bugzilla is that you cannot edit your message (unlike forum), and you cannot revert back your mistake. Which mean it's perfectly ok to speak in forum when drunk, far less in bugzilla :)
khayyam wrote:
Heheh ... drunk at kbd should probably be in the guidelines ;)
Lul, ++

"Don't drink and derive: alcohol and analysis don't mix."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tony0945
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 2577
Location: Illinois, USA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
"Don't drink and derive: alcohol and analysis don't mix."
:D
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Gentoo Chat All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 3 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum