| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 8935
|
 Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:03 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
So you were the victim of an unresponsive proxied maintainer, until the maintainer was finally dropped. Are you really surprised that no one answers to bugs without maintainer? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| asturm wrote: | | Are you really surprised that no one answers to bugs without maintainer? |
I'm not discussing the bug here.
Are you aware that there is a better way to phrase the same response, that does not sound like a personal criticism?
"It is hardly surprising that.."
I say this because you're coming across as rude to a native English speaker, and it might be a problem of translation or culture, so I thought I'd give you a heads-up. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Yamakuzure
Advocate
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 2282
Location: Adendorf, Germany
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Tony0945 wrote: | | 5. Get a smart ass remark about "supposed use" |
Where? You were just asked what the use of the file you posted was, because you nowhere wrote what that file is about. And instead of you, Pacho Ramos answered the question.
Sure, 2 years is long. But as you can see, Lumina has no maintainer, so what did you expect?
| steveL wrote: | "It is hardly surprising that.."
I say this because you're coming across as rude to a native English speaker, and it might be a problem of translation or culture, so I thought I'd give you a heads-up. |
I always appreciate such a "heads-up". It really helps us non-native english speakers.
_________________
Important German:- "Aha" - German reaction to pretend that you are really interested while giving no f*ck.
- "Tja" - German reaction to the apocalypse, nuclear war, an alien invasion or no bread in the house.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Yamakuzure wrote: | | Tony0945 wrote: | | 5. Get a smart ass remark about "supposed use" |
Where? You were just asked what the use of the file you posted was, because you nowhere wrote what that file is about. |
The use of the word "supposed" is accusatory and defamatory. I was interested in this desktop (it has since gone in directions I don't care for) and I found a bug. I spent considerable time researching portage and X11 to fix the bug. Then when I report it, I am accused of lying.
It's a good thing this is all internet because I don't allow people to call me a liar face to face.
EDIT: spelling
Last edited by Tony0945 on Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 8935
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Tony0945 wrote: | | Then when I report it, I am accused of lying. |
I think you just failed at communication. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| asturm wrote: | | Tony0945 wrote: | | Then when I report it, I am accused of lying. |
I think you just failed at communication. |
I failed? I've been speaking English for about 70 years. How long have you? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 8935
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yes, you speak the language, but you failed at communication. steveL on the other hand got it completely right.
Did you, in that bug, for one second consider that the dev:
a) is not using their native language
b) does not maintain that package
c) may not use their system like you do
d) is simply inquiring what this is about?
| Tony0945 wrote: | | for about 70 years. |
That is a fun fact considering some past encounters. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Hu
Moderator
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 21586
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Tony0945 wrote: | | The use of the word "supposed" is accusatory and defamatory. I spent considerable time researching portage and X11 to fix the bug. Then when I report it, I am accused of lying. |
For context for those who have not read the comment in the bug: | Andrey Grozin wrote: | What's the supposed use of this file?
I have ~/.xinitrc:
#!/bin/sh
setxkbmap -layout us,ru -option grp:caps_toggle,grp_led:caps
exec start-lumina-desktop
Then startx starts lumina (and I can switch my keyboard layout between us and ru). |
Native speaker here. I don't see that as accusatory or defamatory. Perhaps it would have been better phrased as "What's the intended use of this file?" or "What is the purpose of this file?" I think he was trying to understand why users would want this change included: benefits, drawbacks, any usage instructions, etc.
In line with asturm's point, note that the developer in question has a name not usually given in English-first countries, and by his own statement uses an xinitrc designed to allow both US-English and Russian. Even if we say that his phrasing is idiomatically insulting (and I don't think it is), he may not have meant it that way. Even without the context that he may not be an English-first speaker, my experience on the forums has been that there are a notable number of participants whose native language is not English, but who have sufficient English proficiency that you don't differentiate them from native speakers in typical conversations. (We also have some posters whose English clearly establishes them as ESL, but that's not important here.) Therefore, it's best to give others the benefit of the doubt. Non-native speakers may unknowingly use phrasing that is idiomatically insulting in English. (Also, though I can't think of any examples, it wouldn't surprise me if American English has idiomatic insults that British English speakers consider to be perfectly polite and innocent non-insults, and vice versa.) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Hu wrote: | | (Also, though I can't think of any examples, it wouldn't surprise me if American English has idiomatic insults that British English speakers consider to be perfectly polite and innocent non-insults, and vice versa.) |
You are right. I can't recall the exact phrase, but I had a London born boss who informed me that a certain idiom common in Chicago had an obscene meaning in London. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Yamakuzure
Advocate
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 2282
Location: Adendorf, Germany
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Hu wrote: | | (Also, though I can't think of any examples, it wouldn't surprise me if American English has idiomatic insults that British English speakers consider to be perfectly polite and innocent non-insults, and vice versa.) |
"To light a fag" comes to my mind. "Fag" is British colloquial for "cigarette", but American for "poofter" / "faggot".
Another one would be the British conclusion "and Bob's your uncle.", meaning something along the lines of "That's the end of it.". Americans might understand that one a tiny bit differently. 
| Tony0945 wrote: | | You are right. I can't recall the exact phrase, but I had a London born boss who informed me that a certain idiom common in Chicago had an obscene meaning in London. |
Hmmm... Might be something with "spunky", "shag", "fanny" or "muff"? Those would be harmless in America, but you'd be certain to say something you clearly didn't intent to when using them in Britain.
_________________
Important German:- "Aha" - German reaction to pretend that you are really interested while giving no f*ck.
- "Tja" - German reaction to the apocalypse, nuclear war, an alien invasion or no bread in the house.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Hu wrote: | | In line with asturm's point, note that the developer in question has a name not usually given in English-first countries, and by his own statement uses an xinitrc designed to allow both US-English and Russian. Even if we say that his phrasing is idiomatically insulting (and I don't think it is), he may not have meant it that way. |
Um, this is complete deflection, afaic, since asturm's point hinged on completely ignoring what was being said to him, which was that he is coming across as rude, right here, and right now on these forums. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6051
Location: Removed by Neddy
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Hu wrote: | | Tony0945 wrote: | | The use of the word "supposed" is accusatory and defamatory. I spent considerable time researching portage and X11 to fix the bug. Then when I report it, I am accused of lying. |
For context for those who have not read the comment in the bug: | Andrey Grozin wrote: | What's the supposed use of this file?
I have ~/.xinitrc:
#!/bin/sh
setxkbmap -layout us,ru -option grp:caps_toggle,grp_led:caps
exec start-lumina-desktop
Then startx starts lumina (and I can switch my keyboard layout between us and ru). |
Native speaker here. I don't see that as accusatory or defamatory. Perhaps it would have been better phrased as "What's the intended use of this file?" or "What is the purpose of this file?" I think he was trying to understand why users would want this change included: benefits, drawbacks, any usage instructions, etc.
In line with asturm's point, note that the developer in question has a name not usually given in English-first countries, and by his own statement uses an xinitrc designed to allow both US-English and Russian. Even if we say that his phrasing is idiomatically insulting (and I don't think it is), he may not have meant it that way. Even without the context that he may not be an English-first speaker, my experience on the forums has been that there are a notable number of participants whose native language is not English, but who have sufficient English proficiency that you don't differentiate them from native speakers in typical conversations. (We also have some posters whose English clearly establishes them as ESL, but that's not important here.) Therefore, it's best to give others the benefit of the doubt. Non-native speakers may unknowingly use phrasing that is idiomatically insulting in English. (Also, though I can't think of any examples, it wouldn't surprise me if American English has idiomatic insults that British English speakers consider to be perfectly polite and innocent non-insults, and vice versa.) |
I agree, as a native speaker there doesn't appear to be anything overtly accusatory. That however doesn't mean it doesn't occur...
I have a collections of scripts that would walk the applications I had installed against bugzilla & cross-correlate the dependencies w.r.t. open bugs -> if an application has stable parents AND it has been "bug free" for > 30days I would raise a stability bug request. I started doing this in response from a developer posting on this forum about no feedback for stability.
I use todo this every few months until a developer went "don't raise a stability request against my packages" at that point I went FU gentoo develpers, stay in your ivory tower & be detached from utilisation..
On the language front some are colloquialisms and there are tonnes in the UK... I can travel north by 40min to wolves and their local phases confuse me ( saying that W.midland phases confuse me considering I am from the south...)
Likewise there are odd ones, especially for the Americans (goes both ways). One that always shocks Americans is the british phase "can I bum a fag off you mate" "bum" being to scab,to have... fag being cig
Then there is Europe mainland and the ordering of the words, especially tense... Will you is a request in English you will is an order. French/German construct their sentences "you will" as a request so when they speak in English it comes out like that. Even though I deal with the French weekly for the last 20years on a professional level, this still catches me off guard especially under stress AND especially as sometimes it is meant as an order!
_________________
| Quote: | | Removed by Chiitoo |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Hund
Apprentice
Joined: 18 Jul 2016
Posts: 218
Location: Sweden
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I've been into the Arch Linux community for about 8 years now and I'm still new here, but I have to say that the things I enjoy the most with this community is that's it feels way more friendly and relaxed.
I'm not going to say anything bad about their community here, but what I can say is that Arch Linux is one of those "cool distros" that attracts a lot of young and vibrant users seeking that coolness and with that comes a lot of attitude as well.
It feels like those who's getting into Gentoo is past that and has nothing to prove. 
_________________
Collect memories, not things. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
szatox
Advocate
Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Posts: 3129
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Hu wrote: | | Tony0945 wrote: | | The use of the word "supposed" is accusatory and defamatory. I spent considerable time researching portage and X11 to fix the bug. Then when I report it, I am accused of lying. |
For context for those who have not read the comment in the bug: | Andrey Grozin wrote: | What's the supposed use of this file?
I have ~/.xinitrc:
#!/bin/sh
setxkbmap -layout us,ru -option grp:caps_toggle,grp_led:caps
exec start-lumina-desktop
Then startx starts lumina (and I can switch my keyboard layout between us and ru). |
Native speaker here. I don't see that as accusatory or defamatory. Perhaps it would have been better phrased as "What's the intended use of this file?"(...)
|
Funny... Though I'm _not_ a native speaker, I am aware that "supposed" may be offensive _in_some_particular_context_. This one, on the other hand is the sort of question you get when your report is not good enough. He even gave a counter-example to make wording your points easier.
Going drama queen over a minor mistake (yes, "intended" would fit better) of a foreigner (Grozin is not an English name, is it?)... Oh my, that's an overreaction. Chill out a bit, life will be easier to bear.
On a lighter note:
Q: How you know someone is your friend?
A: He will always help you. As soon as he stops laughing at you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
josephg
l33t
Joined: 10 Jan 2016
Posts: 783
Location: usually offline
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I used Arch for many years, and never needed their forums due to their excellent wiki. I started moving off Arch when they moved to systemd, and stepped off completely when they dumped 32bit platforms. I had my Arch so customised that I seemed to breeze into Gentoo.
I would have given up Gentoo within the first few months, if not for the forums! Almost everyone here could be one of my best friends. They are that helpful. Gentoo wiki could become so much more. As NeddySeagoon says, there are few "assholes" here, and I have had the misfortune to come up on their gun sights. I am still with Gentoo since a few years now, but don't frequent the forums as much as I used to or would like to.
_________________
"Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell." Edward Abbey |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| szatox wrote: | | (Grozin is not an English name, is it?) |
No, but not a name that would raise eyebrows here. Chicago has always been a city of immigrants. Regarding English names, the most common name in the 1950 census is "Olson" if you include the "Olsen" spelling and is Scandinavian. Polish, Ukrainian, and Czech names are common while Italian and Irish names are ubiquitous. German and Spanish names certainly don't raise any eyebrows either. The mayor is a Jew who served in the Israeli Army and the previous Mayor was an African-American whose parents were immigrants from the American South.
Grozin is not an unusual name. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Yamakuzure
Advocate
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 2282
Location: Adendorf, Germany
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Naib wrote: | | I use todo this every few months until a developer went "don't raise a stability request against my packages" at that point I went FU gentoo develpers, stay in your ivory tower & be detached from utilisation.. |
So you really judge all gentoo devs by one incident with one developer over one package? 
Don't get me wrong here, their reaction was just plain wrong. Anybody with bugzilla access can raise stability requests. And should.
_________________
Important German:- "Aha" - German reaction to pretend that you are really interested while giving no f*ck.
- "Tja" - German reaction to the apocalypse, nuclear war, an alien invasion or no bread in the house.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6051
Location: Removed by Neddy
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Yamakuzure wrote: | | Naib wrote: | | I use todo this every few months until a developer went "don't raise a stability request against my packages" at that point I went FU gentoo develpers, stay in your ivory tower & be detached from utilisation.. |
So you really judge all gentoo devs by one incident with one developer over one package?
Don't get me wrong here, their reaction was just plain wrong. Anybody with bugzilla access can raise stability requests. And should. |
oh I never said that was the only incident and certainly not the only incident on bugzilla... Even then that one should not have existed
I was quite active around the lime of glep55, hostile takeover attempts of #gentoo-chat, " death threat" from a Gentoo Dev, the vitriol from the paludis cabal (when. They were on the forums and part of Gentoo)
I used that example to support the statement devs on bugzilla are not professional. It coincidentally was my final straw. There is a rotton core to gentoo devs and it's been there ever since I have been using Gentoo +since 2004)
_________________
| Quote: | | Removed by Chiitoo |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20067
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Naib wrote: | | One that always shocks Americans is the british phase "can I bum a fag off you mate" "bum" being to scab,to have... fag being cig |
Bum is (or was) used similarly here too.
_________________
Quis separabit? Quo animo? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
skellr
l33t
Joined: 18 Jun 2005
Posts: 975
Location: The Village, Portmeirion
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Tony0945 wrote: | | Hu wrote: | | (Also, though I can't think of any examples, it wouldn't surprise me if American English has idiomatic insults that British English speakers consider to be perfectly polite and innocent non-insults, and vice versa.) |
You are right. I can't recall the exact phrase, but I had a London born boss who informed me that a certain idiom common in Chicago had an obscene meaning in London. |
Was the word spastic used? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| skellr wrote: | | Was the word spastic used? |
I'm quite sure it wasn't. The conversation was circa twenty years ago. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Yamakuzure
Advocate
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 2282
Location: Adendorf, Germany
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Naib wrote: | | Yamakuzure wrote: | | Naib wrote: | | I use todo this every few months until a developer went "don't raise a stability request against my packages" at that point I went FU gentoo develpers, stay in your ivory tower & be detached from utilisation.. |
So you really judge all gentoo devs by one incident with one developer over one package?
Don't get me wrong here, their reaction was just plain wrong. Anybody with bugzilla access can raise stability requests. And should. |
oh I never said that was the only incident and certainly not the only incident on bugzilla... Even then that one should not have existed |
I thought so. Wouldn't have believed it anyway. | Naib wrote: | | I was quite active around the lime of glep55, hostile takeover attempts of #gentoo-chat, " death threat" from a Gentoo Dev, the vitriol from the paludis cabal (when. They were on the forums and part of Gentoo) |
I remember the Paludis crowd, alright. Now you mentioned them, I do not miss them... | Naib wrote: | | I used that example to support the statement devs on bugzilla are not professional. It coincidentally was my final straw. There is a rotton core to gentoo devs and it's been there ever since I have been using Gentoo +since 2004) |
Well, some devs are not professional, because they aren't professionals at all. I am a software developer for many years now. Studied physics and information technology, was trained for software development, and have many years of experience in designing and developing software (from low level (like talking to SCSI devices) up to full scale GUI powered applications) for GNU/Linux, AIX and Windows. Although I started out on an Amiga 500, later Amiga 4000 PPC, I don't count them any more. (Although I still miss intuition.library)
However, other people spending their time on FOSS projects, are not professional developers. They make mistakes. And sometimes act unprofessional. It wouldn't help any project if I abandoned helping projects I am interested in, just because I take offense in anybodies behavior.
I too make mistakes, though mine tend to have more catastrophic effects. And I can be very unprofessional, too.
Call it human nature.
I am with Gentoo since 2003. I won't judge any opinion, but I think that the perceiving of a "rotten core" could be highly subjective. Which does not rule it out, it just could be my perception not seeing it.
_________________
Important German:- "Aha" - German reaction to pretend that you are really interested while giving no f*ck.
- "Tja" - German reaction to the apocalypse, nuclear war, an alien invasion or no bread in the house.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
M
Guru
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 432
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I don't know much about Arch Linux and their forums (I did have an account), but it looks like they now have a large user base. You start from base system and install what you want, just in a much simpler way then in Gentoo. What I did notice is they like to brag about it everywhere, woo hoo, I am on Arch, I am smart, everything else is dumb etc. but I probably did the same with Gentoo back then (2003), nothing wrong with that, I don't mind, I also was a kid once
What I don't like is that packages they have in AUR look like they are not tested at all, bad quality, not maintained etc. And you are somehow forced to use that repo because without it you are missing a lot. Next thing, choices, with Arch you don't get to choose dependencies, if it is built with something I don't need there is no choice of alternative package without that dep. I guess you can probably install some base Debian and install what you want, you get the same thing as result, binary distro where someone decided what is best for you, and that I don't like.
In Gentoo, it is much difficult to add your favorite package to repo, it has to be tested and verified that it compiles on all arches, different USE flags, different versions of libs, different compilers, but when something finally gets to portage, it is usually quality ebuild. Devs will ask why did you do that this way, why not like that, they will point you to mistakes you made etc. For other things we have overlays, you are free to hack whatever you want there. Devs care about Gentoo, otherwise they will not invest so much time, precious time.
I saw the comment above, about lumina and .xinitrc, well, devs are only human. If he never used XDM, GDM or whatever is actual now (I use qingy for years now, before that just .xinitrc) then just explain that, no reason to be upset about that. I sent a request recently for inclusion of new package (https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=652848), I want to proxy maintain it. If that goes well I might also pick some orphaned packages that I use and care about. I don't expect someone to instantly add that, nobody is payed for that job, if it gets to portage by the time 2.0 is released that would be great. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'd be very surprised if 90%+ of gentoo users don't use xdm or gdm or kdm or slim. I'm aware that some people just start X with startx, but I'm sure most just use startx as an an installion/debugging tool.
A dev should know that. It's part of the same attitude "I use startx so screw the rest of you." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
M
Guru
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 432
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Tony0945 wrote: | I'd be very surprised if 90%+ of gentoo users don't use xdm or gdm or kdm or slim. I'm aware that some people just start X with startx, but I'm sure most just use startx as an an installion/debugging tool.
A dev should know that. It's part of the same attitude "I use startx so screw the rest of you." |
I do not agree. I use Gentoo for 15 years, and so far I only used startx and now probably 5,6 years qingy in text mode. I did try and used similar apps in VM or wherever, Gnome, KDE etc. but never installed such thing, and never had the need for that.
I want to use /etc/X11/Sessions/ and I do use sessions, and I have a lot of stuff there, but never ever did I installed some other DM to enter X so I can get to X.
Qingy is very nice, I just use text mode, no FB, you can choose between sessions, one of the option is to go to console, and it supports autologin, very nice.
So, I know there is some new and hot DM currently (don't know the name not, not important, I can find it). And for example, if I don't care, never tried it and not interested at all in that app, I now should be forced to use it because I am a dev? Doesn't make sense. Also, I have two friend who use Gentoo without DM, and one friend that do use it and wants it, and they are the only guys I know personally that use Gentoo. So I guess that number is 90% is also wrong. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
Gentoo Chat
