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What's the general character of this hypothetical new Sub-Forum?
Predominantly support (maybe with some chat).
14%
 14%  [ 2 ]
Predominantly chat (maybe with some support).
85%
 85%  [ 12 ]
Total Votes : 14

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Zucca
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:02 pm    Post subject: General computer hardware talk? Reply with quote

A lot of times I find myself trying to find a proper subforums to discuss about computer hardware.
Is it ok to ask general (not neccessarily Gentoo related) hardware questions on "Kernel & Hardware" -subforum?

If the topic is just general computer hardware talk, then only place would be OTW.
But as the current state of OTW is what it is, a wild jungle, the actual questions about hardware may just sink to the bottom or be fully or partly invaded by trolled answers. Note that I'm NOT blaming the people for "trollish" comments, it's OTW after all. ;) Asking general hardware questions on OTW may also be bit more problematic because OTW posts don't show up when looking at "Posts from 24h" or "Unanswered topics". Although it's a minor thing, I think.

Am I asking too much if I ask for some kind of computer hardware discussion subforum as another off-topic subforum (in addition to OTW)?
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1clue
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1.

I have on occasion wanted to post questions or comments about some particular computing hardware. This forum has more Linux-specific hardware experience than any other I follow, and more knowledge of how systems work in general.

Dropping this sort of discussion in OTW is painful.
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since general hardware can be useful to Gentoo users and OTW is rough I think Kernel & Hardware is appropriate, or at the very least tolerable. Of course, Window specific material need not apply.

EDIT: Just to clarify this is my opinion. Others higher up may disagree.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My opinion is anything like that is fine as long as it doesn't blatantly sound like some kind of homework question from a win32 user. (they deserve otw)
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krinn
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think as surprising as it might be, Gentoo Chat would be more a better place.

Why?
if you want "purely" speak about hardware, your motivation is "speaking" ; you don't generally really wish speak about the interaction of the hardware with gentoo, that is resume with the kernel, but if you want speak about an ethernet card and its driver or configuration, for sure kernel & hardware is just the right place.

but i don't think you have this way in mind no?
if you want speak about tweaking, repairing hardware, then it would more be an open discussion rather than seeking an answer to some drivers problem. Of course it will like always be related to gentoo, as all hardware may be use with gentoo (except if you start speaking about some unsupport arch)

Got it?
I have brought that wifi pci card:
* what driver to use -> kernel & hardware
* omg, can't believe how cheap the antenna in this model are! signal is lost when i move my hand in front of it! -> gentoo chat
* i have brought a 2TB usb hdd from ZeChina company, and i couldn't write only few megs on it! I have open it and see it's an 128MB usb key with an hack firmware announcing 2TB space to the os! -> gentoo chat

As everyone is already using kernel&hardware for drivers/config issue, i think what you are asking is a place to "chat" about some aspects of that hardware instead. And a place like Gentoo chat (that finally isn't that so noisy), that is suppose to get noise ("noise" as less useful directly, if someone seek answer to a problem, he should better look inside kernel&hardware than gentoo chat) could be the right place for, well, chatting ;)
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steveL
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
Dropping this sort of discussion in OTW is painful.
++
Any discussion in OTW is painful, since it is basically an echo chamber for abusive personalities to act out in.
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1clue
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My understanding is that Kernel and Hardware is a support request.

I have on several occasions wanted to go shopping for some specific item which would be used in an enterprise scenario, and just wanted to talk about the mechanics of how it gets used, and what works best.

K&H would be what I would be inclined to use, but maybe it would be better if there were a non-support subforum which would be a "normal rules" discussion area, not an "OTW rules" discussion.

OTW can be fun, if you're bored stiff and need to exchange snarky comments at everyone.
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Several of the Moderators have also seen the need for a kinder, gentler place to put things that technically don't fit anywhere but OTW. Stay tuned for an announcement, hopefully soon. :wink:

- John
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Zucca
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh boy!

I hope I can mark this topic as [solved] soon. :)
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krinn
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
OTW can be fun, if you're bored stiff and need to exchange snarky comments at everyone.

Not just that, i keep myself doing jokes about OTW but in real, i find the guys there pretty smart (well, ok most of them), more like they are playing a game, and you need to be somehow quiet smart to play it at their level.
And when it's not some "president" or the like chat talk thread, they are fully supportive and nice guys trying to help.
Even i could agree that pjp and desultory should have the title "beast master" rather than moderator :)
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Added a poll to this thread. I'm not sure whether the new sub-forum would be predominantly support or predominantly chat and I don't really think there will be enough volume to justify two new sub-forums. What do you all think?

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Zucca
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chat. I think most of the support questions will turn out to be "seeking for advice" kind of questions. Like "I'm looking a motherboard for my server..."
Also chat kinda includes support too... ;)
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1clue
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's hard for me to answer that.

For the type of threads I'm thinking about, I want advice from someone who knows about the subject, but it's not necessarily anything having to do with Gentoo. So to say it's support might be a bit of a reach, but likewise saying it's chat is a bit of a reach in the other direction.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I voted mostly support, but I'm thinking about "Hey, my hardware doesn't work" or "my hardware works but it's flaky". Driver problems/questions belong in "kernel & hardware". For instance, my usb connecting to my APC Back-UPS UPS keeps dropping out. Where would that go.
OTOH, the long thread I started aboyt Zen before it was launched would clearly belong to this new category.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having just assembled my 1st desktop since 2006 I think this would be a great use. My biggest worry when I started was UEFI because of all the horror stories but I'm happy to say the Gentoo Handbook and wiki got me through it. :) I'm amazed by by all the new tech and the quality of the new case I got really wow'ed me!

I assembled mine from some deals I got during the last year and black Friday / holiday sales and I really lucked outed as they all seem to be working smoothly together.

I also got a Nikon DSLR and I'm looking forward to digitally doing the darkroom work and printing I was doing with an OM1 in the 70's and this would be a great way of exploring new options.
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szatox
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Considering that we already have a support forum (kernel an hardware), I expect the new one to fall into "chat" category.
Ideas, general questions, interesting devices, what to buy, do you have any experience etc.
"My device is not detected" already has its place.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

szatox wrote:
Considering that we already have a support forum (kernel an hardware), I expect the new one to fall into "chat" category.

+1
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
K&H would be what I would be inclined to use, but maybe it would be better if there were a non-support subforum which would be a "normal rules" discussion area, not an "OTW rules" discussion.
Sure.
Quote:
OTW can be fun, if you're bored stiff and need to exchange snarky comments at everyone.
Yes, I understand it's about venting your spleen, and I realise it can feel like fun to do so.

I just don't think it's healthy, personally, to keep stimulating that hyper-critical, aggressive, aspect of personality. Addictive sure, but healthy? Definitely not.

By no means is it behaviour that would be allowed on any other Gentoo medium.
You have this disconnect, whereby the forums actually have the best interaction with users, OTW is full of bile, as frankly is much of IRC, and then the dev-ml is a weird mixture of blokey-joking on the one hand, and insanely prissy egos that cannot take the slightest hint of critical analysis.

I just don't see the point in venerating Jack's bile duct.

It isn't big, it isn't clever (except in that overweaning "I have an intellect, and I'm not afraid to abuse it," kind of way, which is not clever at all, merely smarmy), and it sure as hell ain't friendly, or indeed in line with any Gentoo rules of conduct ever instituted since inception (apart from "We're allowed to behave like shitheads in OTW, mkay?")

No, it's really not okay.
Sort your heads out, ffs. No doubt your families would all be much happier for it.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
Not just that, i keep myself doing jokes about OTW but in real, i find the guys there pretty smart (well, ok most of them), more like they are playing a game, and you need to be somehow quiet smart to play it at their level.

krinn ... well, that's definitely the best joke I've heard about OTW ... though you left out the part about snowflakery when it comes to guidelines, lol-gov.

best ... khay
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szatox
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I just don't think it's healthy, personally, to keep stimulating that hyper-critical, aggressive, aspect of personality. Addictive sure, but healthy?
I'm not so sure. Throwing shit at each other is just a part of men being men. And being men, we have to deal with being on the receiving end of that. You may think of it as "tempering".
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

szatox wrote:
Quote:
I just don't think it's healthy, personally, to keep stimulating that hyper-critical, aggressive, aspect of personality. Addictive sure, but healthy?
I'm not so sure. Throwing shit at each other is just a part of men being men. And being men, we have to deal with being on the receiving end of that. You may think of it as "tempering".


If that's all you do is hang out in OTW and hurl insults around, I agree with steveL. Go get a job or something.

On the other hand, In a separate forum where those rules apply, separate from more serious concerns, I don't see much harm in it. It's like taking your fast car to the track so you can do burnouts and drag race near other people who want to do burnouts and drag race. What would be normally considered obnoxious and potentially dangerous behavior, but in a venue designed specifically for that behavior, with loosened rules but rules nonetheless.

I've been on the Internet since before the .com domain existed. I've been on newsgroups since there were newsgroups, and on modem-based BBS systems long before I even heard of the arpanet. I remember the days of the acoustic coupler and knowing by the sound of the carrier whether the connection would be faster or slower than I could type.

In all that, these BBS systems and newsgroups and chat rooms have all had a bunch of assholes hurling insults around. In a lot of cases I was one of them. I've also been that other guy, trying to get real help or discuss a real issue when there were a bunch of assholes hurling insults. I understand the attraction. I can't be better than thou because I've been that guy, WAY more recently than I would like to admit.

I'm glad that OTW is there. I go hang out there once in awhile. But I would rather have a more tame, moderated venue for some types of questions.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
knowing by the sound of the carrier whether the connection would be faster or slower than I could type.
I remember the times of analog modems. Our first internet connection was 33600bps. And sometimes when there were many connections to the ISP, I got slower line. I think I later learned to recognize the carrier sounds and guess if I got slower or faster connection. Slower connections were quite rare back then. Many already had ISDN or ADSL even. We kept using dial-up, because it was practically free at nightime. And back then internet was that magical place best experienced at night. :P

Oh. well... Too much off topic already.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

szatox wrote:
Throwing shit at each other is just a part of men being men. And being men, we have to deal with being on the receiving end of that.

szatox ... I thought men paid prostitutes for this sort of thing ... but anyhow, seeing as this is simply men being men, then absolutely, gentoo should to cater to their snowflake needs ... thanks for confirming my point.

1clue wrote:
On the other hand, In a separate forum where those rules apply, separate from more serious concerns, I don't see much harm in it.

@1clue ... I think you mean "those rules don't apply", right? ... but OK, then isn't the question then why those rules apply at all to other sections of the forum, and all other gentoo fora?

1clue wrote:
It's like taking your fast car to the track so you can do burnouts and drag race near other people who want to do burnouts and drag race. What would be normally considered obnoxious and potentially dangerous behavior, but in a venue designed specifically for that behavior, with loosened rules but rules nonetheless.

No, it's nothing like that, gentoo doesn't provide services to drag racers, pigeon fanciers, ISIS, or many other special interest groups ... we exist for one specific purpose, gentoo linux. Anything that happens under that umbrella should conform to the same rules, and should serve the interests of the community.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

szatox wrote:
Throwing shit at each other is just a part of men being men.

Bullies, you mean. And it's called "hazing".
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pjp
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bullied into retraction.
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