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Mr. T.
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Joined: 26 Dec 2016
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:33 pm    Post subject: Forum Etiquitte Reply with quote

Mod edit: Split from Set rights flag on a file for a specific group only and moved to Gentoo Forums Feedback as Guidelines and Forum Etiquette discussions are off topic. — JRG

There are worse guideline violations than that mentioned one in relation to my post.
    manipulate, depreciate, induce in error, ignore, despice, overwork, overload, etc.
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John R. Graham
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Joined: 08 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. T. wrote:
There are worse guideline violations than that mentioned one in relation to my post.
    manipulate, depreciate, induce in error, ignore, despice, overwork, overload, etc.
That doesn't matter. Other bad actors, be they users or Moderators, do not give you license to be a bad actor. Also, although we actively try to be even handed, as there are a whole lot more users than Moderators, we sometimes let something slide that we shouldn't. If you think we have, please let us know through the normal mechanism.

Also keep in mind that we're all volunteers, interacting on and contributing to a project we care about. It's much more fun when it's civil; the Guidelines are designed to help keep it that way.

- John
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Jaglover
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I do not question the way how these forums are moderated, there is a question not answered anywhere. How exactly are we supposed to handle Help Vampires? I usually refrain from posting in such threads.
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Zucca
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Joined: 14 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaglover wrote:
I usually refrain from posting in such threads.
I'll point them to the wiki. If wiki doesn't answer the question, then I'll usually help if I know the simple answer.
On Arch forums help vampires are usually treated with "too noob for Arch" -attitude. This means the topic goes to "Newbie corner" or even to dustbin. I don't want that attitude here. :( Binning a topic just by a glance is bad practice. Especially if the question is wrongly understood and the topic is binned, the OP cannot continue the discussion. Rude behaviour.

So to deal with help vampires, I think, best is to just provide a link to the answer. But, of course, with a friendlier attitude than what Mr. T showed here.
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Last edited by Zucca on Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaglover,

They don't tend to last on Gentoo, even when they are helped.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. T. wrote:
There are worse guideline violations than that mentioned one in relation to my post. manipulate, depreciate, induce in error, ignore, despice, overwork, overload, etc.

John R. Graham wrote:
That doesn't matter. Other bad actors, be they users or Moderators, do not give you license to be a bad actor. Also, although we actively try to be even handed, as there are a whole lot more users than Moderators, we sometimes let something slide that we shouldn't. If you think we have, please let us know through the normal mechanism.

John ... you're right, but one feeds into the other, and so when something is "let [...] slide" (or worse, supported) then you're automatically a "bad actor" ... either by your actions (ie, in cases where the "bad actors" may be those judging/enforcing the guidelines, or where such moderation is applied to one party but given free reign otherwise), or by complicity/silence.

It's quite possible to game the system and use the guidelines to silence those who challenge others on their conduct ... I know this to be the case, because I've been on the receiving end (and can prove it ... if I cared to, or thought it'd make a difference).

That, I think, is far more worrying than the use of the term "lazy" (even if directed at a specific individual). Sure, such a personification can contribute to an unhealthy environment, but for moderation to function (however imperfectly) such checks on abuse have to be broadly applied, and this isn't the case. So, for example ... if you describe others as "selfish sissies", or as "complain[ers]", and then qualify this with "it is completely intentional that I do not attach the above to any names", then this is enough to have such behaviour fly below the radar ... and that seems to be the case as nobody reported it, and you, NeddySeagoon, and pjp, are all following that particular thread. So, Mr T. is right to argue that "worse" abuses take place, given how minor the term "lazy" is, had he said "I pity the fool [...]" and then quoted points 2 and 3 of the guidelines this would most likely have gone without comment, it might even have been taken as humorous (given his nick), but only because it could be seen as impersonal.

John R. Graham (was: Mr. T.) wrote:
Also keep in mind that we're all volunteers, interacting on and contributing to a project we care about. It's much more fun when it's civil; the Guidelines are designed to help keep it that way.

Indeed, but you're not considering the fact that "bad actors" are often adept at gaming the system in their favour. Also, at the other end of the spectrum, that semblance of civility shouldn't exclude our being inclined to call a spade a spade for fear of being censured. Do you think it a violation of the guidelines for me to describe 1clue as "a perfect example of a know nothing" ... and does doing so diminish civility?

@Mr T. ... I pity the fool who "despice" ... I like spices ;)

best ... khay

[Moderator edit: fixed final quote attribution. khayyam attributed it to Mr. T., but it actually comes from one of JRG's posts. This was confusing to me, and possibly others. I left a (was: ) marker to identify the modified block. -Hu]
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