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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
What is this objection to the word "classes" anyway? So are there to be no distinction between the people who develop software and those who use it?

I think "group" would be more neutral. "Class" implies a hierarchy.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zucca wrote:
I want to unfollow this topic now. :(
Is it salvageable? I haven't followed closely enough to know where it went way off topic. I'll take a look tonight or tomorrow to see if I can extract the non-Gentoo politics.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
"Thanks" for the link. I hadn't seen the video. 12 years later...


I enjoyed the video as well. Here's a link for those that don't feel like sifting through the bug: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZSli7QW4rg
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
mv wrote:
Daniel Robins' comment #27 in his blacklisting bug describes the current atmosphere in gentoo quite well.

Wow! Is this what this thread is about? I thought it was a generic discussion.
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Yamakuzure
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leaving a community as a user is one thing. Leaving as a former productive member of a team leaves a hole the others must fill. If the leaving people have been treated badly, I can understand that. But if it turns out that they were just selfish sissies, I can only shake my head. A community project isn't a company that can just push out a few job advertisements...

dev-ml is for developers. Non-developers can be white-listed per request. It was wrong to allow non-developers without clearance to post to dev-ml in the first place. Wrong and unprofessional.

And "power"? What "power"? Like they would get a new car out of that or what?

Some people just complain, not because they are hard up, but just because they don't do even better than they already do. Pathetic.

And it is completely intentional that I do not attach the above to any names. This is just my subjective feeling. If any reader feels addressed, then may it be so. I do not address anybody in particular.

Oh! Almost forgot!
@Khay @1clue : Could you please please stop your circle of cross-purposes? It is always so much text to scroll by... ;-)
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zucca wrote:
I want to unfollow this topic now. :(

pjp wrote:
Is it salvageable? I haven't followed closely enough to know where it went way off topic. I'll take a look tonight or tomorrow to see if I can extract the non-Gentoo politics.

pjp ... please don't do that, the context of such discussion would be lost, and wherever it has strayed into "non-gentoo politics" this is due to their being contention about what such "gentoo politics" is (ie, "democracy is mob rule", etc).

@Zucca ... the fact that the discussion doesn't appeal to you is fine, and feel free to say so, but that may not be case for others, so, fine, unfollow, but do we need to be informed of the fact?

best ... khay
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
[...]

Yamakuzure ... are you intentionally trolling or is that simply how you go about expressing your "subjective feelings"? ... and do you think that describing people as "selfish sissies", and then attaching the proviso that you "do not attach the above to any names", is in line with the forum guidelines, or basic netiquette?

Yamakuzure wrote:
@Khay @1clue : Could you please please stop your circle of cross-purposes? It is always so much text to scroll by... ;-)

Sorry no, my right to post to to whatever topic I choose trumps your minor inconvenience.

best ... khay
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Zucca
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
unfollow, but do we need to be informed of the fact?
There's no "unfollow this topic" -button. That's why I mentioned. And by splitting the topic would solve the (or rather my) issue.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zucca wrote:
khayyam wrote:
unfollow, but do we need to be informed of the fact?

There's no "unfollow this topic" -button. That's why I mentioned. And by splitting the topic would solve the (or rather my) issue.

Zucca ... actually there is, on the bottom left there is "stop watching this topic", and again, I don't see how such a split could be done without loosing the context in which those posts were made, and they are in essence about "gentoo politics". I respect that you may not want to read, or even be exposed to, what I write, that is fine. I respect that it can be an annoyance if a discussion you're not intested in is contained within the same thread of something you are interested in ... but that is just how it goes, we give and take, no indivduals needs have precedence.

best ... khay
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krinn
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zucca wrote:
khayyam wrote:
unfollow, but do we need to be informed of the fact?
There's no "unfollow this topic" -button. That's why I mentioned. And by splitting the topic would solve the (or rather my) issue.

It would not, i have been ping more than once from a split topic, so splitting won't remove the follow-it functionality.

If you want get off of this i think you can answer it and while doing it, making sure you unstick the "Notify me when a reply is posted" (just upper the preview/submit buttons)
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pjp
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zucca wrote:
There's no "unfollow this topic" -button. That's why I mentioned. And by splitting the topic would solve the (or rather my) issue.
If you've clicked the "Watch this topic for replies" link, there should be a new link to stop following. It should be near the bottom of the thread and look like this:
Code:
Reply to topic
Page 6 of 6
Stop watching this topic


The thread briefly detours on page 1 with shells, and then on page 2 with the "nuance of meaning". Unfortunately, there are enough on topic comments to make a split non-trivial.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
Daniel Robins' comment #27 in his blacklisting bug describes the current atmosphere in gentoo quite well.

I don't think toxic libav backstabbers like lu_zero should be proposing to blacklist anybody.
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Zucca
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Team,

All I have at the bottom is "Watch this topic for replies", which is opposite.
Anyway I can live with this topic popping up on my "egosearch" -page. So just nevermind.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zucca wrote:
All I have at the bottom is "Watch this topic for replies", which is opposite.

Zucca ... you should only see that if you're not currently "watching" (so, having clicked "watch", or posted), otherwise you should see "stop watching this topic". Can't think why that would be the case but perhaps report it to forum administrators.

best ... khay
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1clue
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
1clue wrote:
I see classes as a mathematician would see them.

1clue ... you might want to think so, but no, the premises of mathematics are mostly unproblematic, and so the deductive operation doesn't need to worry about ontological status. This is not true for the sciences (which are inductive) the premises are not given. Please re-read what I wrote above WRT "classification", "cognitive, and epistemic, bias", beings of reason", etc, and consider what grounds you have for such classes, how you infer their existence, and then ask yourself: what of infra, comrel, userel, etc, do these similarly warrant a "class", and what epistemic, or practical, purpose do, or would, such classification serve? You've been looking at this as though these distinctions are necessary, if not objective, while I have been looking at it from the position that to explicate what this community is, and how it functions, it must be looked at from the domain in which it operates, and that domain is the socio-political. I'm far more interested (as would be expected given my background) in this "working" than "getting work done", because the former is logically prior to the later, and (more importantly) plays a far more important role ... community is difficult, the development part is (relatively) easy.


Khayyam,

Decisions made while ignoring facts are bad decisions. If the people making a decision know a thing to be true but they act as though it were not, then they KNOW they're making a bad decision. People who advise decision-makers and deliberately omit or alter FACTS so that they match with political philosophy are culpable. My entire exercise has been to point out that there are in fact differences of access REQUIRED to be a developer. Yes there are in fact developers. That means that mathematically speaking there are classes of members who ARE developers and classes of members who ARE NOT developers. Denying this FACT will either revoke all access to Gentoo source code from absolutely everyone, or it will grant it to everyone. You should be smart enough to realize that either decision would be the end of Gentoo. But you're still arguing. The FACT is that there are things developers do which requires access not granted to non-developers.

You must next determine the level of benefit of a closed-but-visible communications channel between developers. That will either have hard data to back it up, or would be a projection. Other distros could be used, by finding out which have such a channel and how well it works.

Once you have accepted FACTS then you can go through all your psychological/sociological/political steps to determine what to do. I don't suggest that looking at facts as a mathematician or non-political observer of the scenario would do is the only thing one must do in order to make a decision. Only that it must be done, and those facts cannot be ignored if good policy is to be made. In my opinion some of the worst laws on the books in the USA stem from politicians ignoring the real world as they make their laws. You can't look at the world as you want it to be, you must look at it as it is, and you must look at a community as it must be, not based on some rule in a book.

Denying the existence of something which clearly exists is also a bias. You are pressuring a biased interpretation of the true situation. The Gentoo charter has rules about equality, and those can't be ignored but they also can't be taken absolutely literally because we already know that developers have access others do not, and this situation cannot be undone.

Examples of facts which may or may not have political ramifications but the discarding of those facts could be disastrous:


  1. Is there a bomb on the plane?
  2. Is a human fetus alive?
  3. Is my building's electrical wiring safe?
  4. Is the radio sitting on the edge of the bathtub plugged in?
  5. Do humans cause environment change?


Each of these things has a yes or no answer. Each of these things can be answered by examining our physical environment without any politics. Each of these things, if ignored, could result in loss of human life. Some of these things have been mired in politics due to the denial of facts in favor of mysticism or social preconceptions, or profit motive.

Due to the inability of people to look at FACTS some of these questions have caused years of rage and discord.

Ready, fire, aim.

There would be a class of planes with bombs on board, and a class of planes without bombs on board.
There would be a class of buildings with safe wiring and a class of buildings without safe wiring.
There would be a class of radios on bathtub rims which are plugged in, and radios not plugged in.

The other questions do not denote a class, because one answer would clearly apply to all instances.

I use the word "class" and you go ballistic because you think I'm trying to stratify society. I'm not trying to stratify anything, I'm only trying to understand the problem domain. Stop applying political bias to real facts. By doing so, you are wrong.


Quote:

1clue wrote:
Yes or no? You didn't answer the question, only avoided it. Are there developers? Do they have access to ANYTHING AT ALL that regular forum users don't have access to?

khayyam wrote:
As I said, read what it is your responding to ... had you done so you would have read the following: you'd asked "there must be some non-politically-charged way to distinguish between people with different roles", to which I replied, "[t]here is, users and developers, however they do not constitute separate classes [...]". As for the following, leading, question, you want me to say, yes, they have commit rights, or something ... and then have to bow my head in shame at not seeing that obvious class identifier ... or something.

1clue wrote:
My point is that they very clearly constitute separate classes. Mathematically speaking, you can say "does this person develop software for gentoo.org?" and the answer is a yes or a no. "Is this person a member of the forum?" and the answer is yes or no. That's all I wanted. We have two undisputable facts, this person is a developer, and that person is a user. Clearly the developers have access to things that normal forum user does not.

Again, you're out of your depth ... those are not objective facts, they are assumptions about composition (assumptions which ignore gentoo's political constitution). By saying "mathematically speaking" it doesn't make your premises any more solid, true conclusions only come from true premises, and as I've been at pain to show your premises are not a given.


In the database of Gentoo members, there is a check box that says something like "isDeveloper". Another one for "isForumMember" and yet another for "isForumAdmin". Are they checked or not? That's as objective as it gets and as objective as I say it needs to be. I do not imply that all developers are equal, nor do I suggest that developers are "better than" normal forum users. Only different due to the tasks they perform.

I don't suggest we ignore Gentoo's political constitution for the entire decision process. I only say we need to ignore it when we observe what actually exists.

After we know what is, we can examine the charter to see what should be and reconcile the differences in a way which best accommodates what must be with what should be.

Quote:

1clue wrote:
Like every other politician you cannot comprehend any truth outside of politics.

khayyam wrote:
... and like a true know nothing you wouldn't know a truth if knocked you upside the head ... so it's name-calling now? Classy.

1clue wrote:
Excuse me, what did you say your degrees are in? I thought you pretty much claimed the "professional politician" class? Calling you what you are is in no way an insult AFAICT.

I didn't, I'd only said "epistemology in politics, law, etc", but now you ask, philosophy.

1clue wrote:
The "obvious" is what you seem to deny at every chance. You brought up Venn diagrams, they're used to illustrate the mathematics of sets and collections and membership in groups. So does math work differently for politicians than it does for actual real-world humans?

khayyam wrote:
So I brought up Venn diagrams (I even provided an example of the grouping of the set), how does this reflect on the consideration given by a mathematician to theory and practice? ... or to restate, how does your reply relate to what it's supposedly in reference to?

1clue wrote:
The disagreement with the implications of a classification does not in any way negate the existence of the classification. Politicians can rewrite the results printed on paper, but they cannot in any way change the actual truth.

Again, what does any of this have to do with the consideration given by a mathematician to theory and practice? ... or to restate, how does your reply relate to what it's supposedly in reference to?

1clue wrote:
The existence of an accurate and relevant classification clarifies the problem. It does not define the answer. The correct answer to any problem can only be achieved through examining the real issues, the real facts, and weighing the possible options. At one point I cared about the answer, but now I no longer want anything to do with it.

... and you're telling me this because?

best ... khay


Last edited by 1clue on Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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1clue
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seeing the complaints on the last page or so, I agree with most of them. I'm done here.

Khayyam can pretend to be right if he wants to.
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1clue
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although in hindsight it occurs to me that I could have used the word set instead of class and likely most of this fire would not have burned. Or maybe collection.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue ... Yamakuzure is right on one point, this discussion has all the attributes of a "circle" ...

1clue wrote:
You can't look at the world as you want it to be, you must look at it as it is, and you must look at a community as it must be, not based on some rule in a book.

I'm satisfied that of everyone observing the world you are the only person that is capable of this act without cognitive, and epistemic, bias ... or maybe not ... wasn't the point I was making: every act of perceiving/conceving involves such bias? No one has access to the world "as it is" everything is filtered though our cognitive, and epistemic, bias.

1clue wrote:
Each of these things has a yes or no answer.

No, "every boolean expression can be reduced to a yes, or no, operator" is a truism. There are statements, perfectly valid statements, that involve assumptions, uncertainty, incoherence, etc, etc, eg: "everything I say is false", a fairly straightforward statement, but is that statement true, or false? The issue here is that our assumption can, and do, turn out to be wrong, and so epistemology is not a matter of hard "fact" but a very modest attempt to uncover those assumptions, and so clarify what we mean when we say "you must look at it as it is".

1clue wrote:
I use the word "class" and you go ballistic because you think I'm trying to stratify society. I'm not trying to stratify anything, I'm only trying to understand the problem domain. Stop applying political bias to real facts. By doing so, you are wrong.

"Ballistic"? ... and otherwise, pffft.

1clue wrote:
In the database of Gentoo members, there is a check box that says something like "isDeveloper". Another one for "isForumMember" and yet another for "isForumAdmin". Are they checked or not?

Every boolean expression can be reduced to a yes, or no, operator.

1clue wrote:
I don't suggest we ignore Gentoo's political constitution for the entire decision process. I only say we need to ignore it when we observe what actually exists.

Well, good, and when there is some contention over "what actually exists" you come down on the side of "what actually exists" I expect?

1clue wrote:
After we know what is, we can examine the charter to see what should be and reconcile the differences in a way which best accommodates what must be with what should be.

That one had me ROTFL ...

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is khayyam's house burning?

khayyam: 'No it is not. My eyes are tearing and my nose smells smoke and my lungs are coughing, and I feel hot. But as every act of perceiving/conceiving involves bias, I cannot be sure. But considering that if my house WERE burning it would mean I could lose everything, then surely my house is not burning."
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
Is khayyam's house burning?

1clue ... no, the only thing burning is that pariticular strawman.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
1clue wrote:
Is khayyam's house burning?

1clue ... no, the only thing burning is that pariticular strawman.

best ... khay


If I wake up and smell smoke I'm going to wake up my family and get out of the house.

You are free to disbelieve physical evidence for the rest of your life. When the flames turn your skin crunchy I suspect you'll have a change of heart.

Goodbye.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
khayyam wrote:
1clue wrote:
Is khayyam's house burning?

1clue ... no, the only thing burning is that pariticular strawman.

If I wake up and smell smoke I'm going to wake up my family and get out of the house. You are free to disbelieve physical evidence for the rest of your life. When the flames turn your skin crunchy I suspect you'll have a change of heart.

1clue ... again, strawman.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I vote split up the tree and maintain a legacy branch to keep the extremely vocal minority happy.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bobbymcgee wrote:
I vote split up the tree and maintain a legacy branch to keep the extremely vocal minority happy.

bobbymcgee ... is that what we're discussing? Oh, and when I read "extremely vocal minority" I think sockpuppet account.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are all sock puppets. Why not redesign the repo system? Work toward a common goal on universal packages and let people do what they want on subprojects effected by init and keep it all under the gentoo umbrella?
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