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Marlo
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:49 pm    Post subject: [Solved] OT³ Copy a Windows 10 Reply with quote

Hello @,

Yesterday I bought a heavily discounted desktop. It is a Ryzen system with an M2-SSD on which a Windows 10 OEM version is installed.
The computer can be upgraded with a Samsung SSD that I have.

My goal is to prepare the M2-SSD for Gentoo and to first copy the Windows 10 to the SSD and use it from there.

Samsung offers the "Data Migration Software". The description explains: "The OEM recovery partition created by the computer manufacturer as a factory setting will not be cloned."

I have no Windows 10 experience and therefore ask the question:
Is it still possible to safely use the cloned version? Are there any other points I should look out for?

I'm thankful for any hints
Ma
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Last edited by Marlo on Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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1clue
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't answer your direct question, but I can offer the probably-obvious advice that you should leave your original drive completely untouched until you find out for sure.
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cloning is a PITA. Your better off to do a clean install with the windows key on the box. As long as you posses the physical box and only have one install for the key you can do this. It would even be permissible to put windows in a VM.

Although if the goal is simply to move the windows install I fail to see any benefit. You can simply shrink partitions for spacing concerns.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
Cloning is a PITA. Your better off to do a clean install with the windows key on the box.


You SHOULD be able to clone onto the SSD. If not then I strongly agree that you're better off to do a clean install on the box, but IMO you need an ISO from Microsoft and a key that works with it. You'll get no adware, no crapware. The junk that vendors put onto consumer workstations and laptops is almost criminal. I really, really dislike Microsoft but the complaints of instability and unreliability are almost entirely the fault of OEM installs on consumer systems containing so much random adware and pure trash.

Quote:

As long as you posses the physical box and only have one install for the key you can do this. It would even be permissible to put windows in a VM.

Although if the goal is simply to move the windows install I fail to see any benefit. You can simply shrink partitions for spacing concerns.


This is extremely false.

I've been managing Windows boxes and VMs with Windows for more than a decade in a corporate environment. Putting an OEM Windows install -- or key -- into a VM will not work.

The install is keyed to the specific serial number of the motherboard, sometimes only 20 or so workstations share the same installer disc. The installer examines the hardware and will not run on anything it's not coded to run on. This is based on serial numbers not having the correct driver. Moreover, the license is issued by the system vendor, not by Microsoft. So getting a clean Microsoft ISO will require a different license key.

We used to order workstations in bulk. They would have consecutive serial numbers. After a few years we would need to get replacement installers due to the hard drives failing. When a lot of 10 systems spans the border between 2 serial number/license lots, you need 2 installer ISOs.
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
putting an OEM Windows install -- or key -- into a VM will not work.
Experience would indicate this is false as far as keys go. I've worked with an IT guy who does this routinely and I've never had any issue with using the key with a clean windows ISO. OEM is just criminal anyway.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
You SHOULD be able to clone onto the SSD. If not then I strongly agree that you're better off to do a clean install on the box, but IMO you need an ISO from Microsoft and a key that works with it. You'll get no adware, no crapware. The junk that vendors put onto consumer workstations and laptops is almost criminal. I really, really dislike Microsoft but the complaints of instability and unreliability are almost entirely the fault of OEM installs on consumer systems containing so much random adware and pure trash.
You can download an installer from Microsoft which will install any version of Home or Pro (including S & N versions). I would guess others too, but haven't looked.
flysideways wrote:
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/15088/windows-create-installation-media

I hadn't done a fresh install of windows in a years and was surprised to find this. It will create install media that is very close to current. Make a win 10 install thumb drive and go for it. You can opt to use the key later, it seems it was three days before it timed out. Quick and easy.

I went down that road because I had two different hardware issues on a new build and got tired of putting in the key with each install while i chased the problem.


1clue wrote:
I've been managing Windows boxes and VMs with Windows for more than a decade in a corporate environment. Putting an OEM Windows install -- or key -- into a VM will not work.

The install is keyed to the specific serial number of the motherboard, sometimes only 20 or so workstations share the same installer disc. The installer examines the hardware and will not run on anything it's not coded to run on. This is based on serial numbers not having the correct driver. Moreover, the license is issued by the system vendor, not by Microsoft. So getting a clean Microsoft ISO will require a different license key.
Are you referring to branded OEM installs, such as Dell or HP? I can purchase an "OEM" Windows from Newegg or Amazon right now. I've never used one, so maybe it won't actually work in a VM, but it doesn't seem possible for it to be tied to physical hardware unknown to it.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OEM installs are what comes on the computer when you buy from dell, hp or wherever you get your pc. It is licensed by the manufactureer of the hardware and the key will not work on an installer downloaded from Microsoft. If you call the microsoft help line they will tell you to contact the manufacturer of the pc, or buy a Microsoft operating system.

You can download the iso from microsoft and install it, and you get a couple months before you need to install a key. But a microsoft key will not unlock an oem windows and an oem key will not unlock a microsoft installer.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Windows 10 Pro 64-bit - OEM (newegg)

Microsoft Software | Windows 10 Home 64 Bit System Builder OEM | PC Disc (amazon)

I have read that once installed, they become tied to your hardware and cannot be moved to another system, but I don't know that with certainty.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:14 am    Post subject: Re: OT³: Copy a Windows 10 Reply with quote

Marlo wrote:
Yesterday I bought a heavily discounted desktop. It is a Ryzen system with an M2-SSD on which a Windows 10 OEM version is installed.

Marlo,
Your new computer somewhere has a sticker with windows license key, right?
You can use this license key for installing a freshly downloaded copy of windows 10 on the same computer. So start the existing windows installation, go to the windows download site and create a bootable windows installation medium (min 8GB I guess). Use that installation medium for installing windows on your second SSD. When prompted for the license key, key in the existing one. Check if it all worked. If so, wipe windows from M2-SSD.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:46 pm    Post subject: Re: OT³: Copy a Windows 10 Reply with quote

Thank you all for the many hints,
charles17 wrote:

Marlo,
Your new computer somewhere has a sticker with windows license key, right?



There is no Windows label on the PC. The Windows 10 Key I have read out with a useful tool.
I used the Samsung tool and copied Win10 from the M2-SSD to the Samsung SSD. Both Windows installations work. On the Samsung SSD I additionally installed openSUSE. The hardware seems to work well with Linux.

However, I am also a beginner in terms of UEFI and must first familiarize myself with the new bios. At the moment I can not create a dualbootmenue with Grub2.

I have removed the M2-SSD and ordered a new, larger one. So I have the original in a warranty case.

I will repeat the installation - as suggested - with a clean Windows and use the key.

Thanks again for the helpful hints
Ma
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Be very careful with this. One key=one install. Microsoft has been known to cancel keys when too many installs are running with it.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
Be very careful with this. One key=one install. Microsoft has been known to cancel keys when too many installs are running with it.

Question is, what is "one install"? Is it the disk or the computer?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

charles17 wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
Be very careful with this. One key=one install. Microsoft has been known to cancel keys when too many installs are running with it.

Question is, what is "one install"? Is it the disk or the computer?


It's very clear in the license. A VM is counted as a computer. A backup of a VM is not.

Let's say you have a Windows host running VMware.

Your host has Microsoft Office installed on it.

You have five VMs running Windows, 4 of which have Microsoft Office.

You have backups of each VM.

You have need of 6 Windows licenses and 5 Microsoft Office licenses.

If you clone one of the existing VMs either by duplicating the active files or by restoring from a backup then you need to add one Windows license and possibly one Microsoft Office license.

If you light up one of the backups in place, you need to bump your license count as well.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

charles17 wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
Be very careful with this. One key=one install. Microsoft has been known to cancel keys when too many installs are running with it.

Question is, what is "one install"? Is it the disk or the computer?
I think the simplest way to think of it is one install = one thing you use. Of course M$ has other restrictions. For example, building a new computer and doing a clean install with the old key would be a violation even if you still only have one copy.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
For example, building a new computer and doing a clean install with the old key would be a violation even if you still only have one copy.

Only for OEM versions, retail doesn't have such limit (i think that's the real and only diff between OEM and "normal" version).
I remember OEM version would be stuck after 3 "big" changes (lot of computer parts change). Dunno for Windows 10, i suppose they have keep it like that too.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did a lot of testing builds with Microsoft operating systems. Different license types have different tolerances for number of re-installs.

We had an MSDN account with software testing licenses, back when that's what they did. I don't know now because I don't deal much with that part of it anymore. But it used to be that if you were a software developer/tester and used that type of license, you could install as many times as you wanted into a VM, as long as you only had one system active per key. So, for example, I could automate a testing process that actually installed Windows and entered a license key, and run that process several times a day with no ill effects.

For an off-the-shelf home license on the other hand, I think changing major hardware 5 times and they probably lock it down. Or less.

MSDN had a list of keys you got, some software products they gave you up to 3 or 4 keys, most of them you only got 1. So if you had 3 keys of something you could have 3 active systems with that product, each having their own key.

It's still one installed system per key though.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the purpose of clarification, there are two different definitions of OEM on this thread.

Some are referencing OEM Windows as what comes from Microsoft on a CD, for which you buy a separate license.

I have always referred to OEM Windows as being what comes pre-installed on the computer you buy.

When you buy a car, drive it for a few years and start to replace parts on it, the OEM part is the exact same part that the factory put on the car originally. So if you want an OEM muffler it will be the same manufacturer and model that the manufacturer put it on as it went through the assembly line. An "aftermarket" part was something else, that you buy separately from the purchase of the new vehicle.

In my experience working with technical support of computer companies like Dell or HP or whatever, they refer to the OEM Windows as what Dell or HP or whatever installed on the system before you bought it. That doesn't make the installer from Microsoft into an 'aftermarket' Windows, but various other terms have been used, like 'genuine Microsoft' or 'pristine' or other terms.

In that sense, if you have a computer you bought and it has a Windows key and a pre-installed Windows that works for it, and that installed system has a bunch of demo-ware on it, that is the OEM system. If you use the 'restore to factory' feature on your system then the OEM system is what you get. The key you get with that system will work on only a handful of other identical systems from that manufacturer. As I said before, the manufacturers we used to buy crates of systems from in bulk keyed them so that any given installer CD worked with as few as 20 physical systems, and then you needed a new CD and new keys. These installations are tied to specific motherboards, specific processors and possibly other required hardware. Change too much and they don't work. Certainly, you CANNOT run this type of Windows inside a VM and expect it to work, even if the VM is on the same physical box that it was originally installed on. Virtualized hardware is NOT the same exact hardware that your system has installed.

The 'pristine/genuine Microsoft' installer will install on pretty much anything, and the license key will work on any system which was installed with that specific ISO. If you abuse the license and install it multiple times on different hardware, Microsoft will eventually get sick of it and mark your license key as dirty.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's clarify oem then:
- retail/box version: no limit to hardware change
- oem: a limit to hardware change, i don't remember well, but i think the limit was 3, maybe 5, but no more.
What is hardware change, that's the problem there, because only MS really knows what will be consider an hardware change or not, at least, video cards are not count as one, and a m/b do.
- genuine: genuine Windows is just a registered Windows: with your own key, you register the Windows version ; the problem is there because the key is use with another key (and that other key is a finger print of your hardware) ; hence the resulting "register" key may change if hardware change too much.
So both oem or box are genuine, box could only end genuine, and oem may fail to end genuine if you have change too much the hardware and exhaust your limit.
- box version is ~3.5x,4x the prize of oem version, oem version could only be sold by computer specialist (not only computer maker, computer specialist refer to a company that is register to sold computer related product), it's then per example illegal to sold oem version as user, even you have never use it. Box version could be sold by anyone. Amazon may not be a computer specialist seller but doesn't themselves sold it, you use a vendor thru amazon, but this mean if any vendor is not a computer specialist in amazon and he is selling oem version, you better not buy it. A vendor may be a professional, still it must be a computer professional, as only them have rights to buy oem license from microsoft. If you just trust his pro status without checking his computer related status, you take a risk. It is that simple, oem are sold cheaper by MS, and MS only sold them to computer specialist, keep also in mind: oem version support is done by the vendor, which mean the guy you are buying it from. Which for common user is not that much of an issue, but for the story, i remember an hospital having trouble with Windows 2k that mistake their scanner (not the tiny one to scan paper, but a big one that scan human body) for an UPS, and of course Windows was shutting down the computer each time they were turning it on as it was reporting battery too low ; something only MS or toshiba could had been of help with, and MS do have take action and fix it while the admin has taken like 15 years in between (lol really i saw the guy getting older each time i met him).
There's also limited support to oem version ; which mean any oem owner calling MS for anything will just be push out with a "contact your reseller", while box version users may query help from microsoft (which is close to nothing if you're not a professional asking help in real).
- the cdrom is the same for oem or box version, and you can share it with your friend too ; MS don't care you copy Windows (as long as you're not doing commercial crap with it) ; because what matter is the key. So you can gave a Windows cdrom to a friend so he could install it, and use HIS own key with it and this as long as his key is a key for that Windows version.
- Windows upgrade only (going from a version to another), i'm not sure if MS is still doing that ; it was like 70% down the prize of box version, and the limit was that you must gave the older Windows key to install it (or install the old version and upgrade it with that upgrade cdrom) ; but it was not well know for many users that it could just be install on a blank hdd and was querying you to provide older Windows key to continue the installation (which is better than install old one to just upgrade it after).
- any Windows key is limit to one installation at a time, this technically mean you can use any key in Windows VM, but you are not allow to have the key in use by two active Windows at a time (which mean you cannot use the key for the VM and install Windows on another VM or disk).
As stupid as it is, it also mean a backup is ok as long as the Windows cannot work. But backup by cloning the whole disk is illegal because you would had a working Windows which would made more than one ; but i'm sure MS won't get mad about it if you do ; but technically speaking, it's illegal to clone it.
- failure to register after like a month, Windows will start complaining with message (your Windows is not genuine...) and other disturbing procedure, dunno it might even stop working (i suppose it would, but never seen anyone going that much).
- you have also oem hardware: and this is really important to know about it: oem hardware is also only sold by computer specialist, they are bundle in basic plastic or even nothing (like hdd or mouse), but generally no box ; they nearly always lack software associate with it (drivers are not, but for scanner per example oem version may not provide any scanning software with it, while box may provide scanning utility, paint program...). An scsi card may be bundle with scsi cable, while oem version would not.
oem version have also "hidden" limit (you have no paper doc with it, and sometimes not even a cdrom with doc with it), but do have limit, you better ask them to the vendor prior buying it ; as example, some (adaptec) raid oem cards cannot get bios upgrade, while non oem do. The range of limit depends on the hardware (including no limit at all), but really you should query about that when buying them, and because they are only sold by computer specialist, it's something they should known and tell you (even they might not really in mood to share them without been asked).
- dell, or whatever company computer maker is providing oem version, which have the same rules as "classic" oem, the support is done by dell and not microsoft, the key may only be use with that computer, you can also use a normal cdrom from a friend to install a "normal" (without the dell crap preinstall tools) and use the provide key by dell to register that Windows. You may buy a computer from a specialist with a non oem Windows and he might pre install it for you, it would not make it oem, so pre installation doesn't make it oem, however dell and company like that of course install oem version because they pay them less.
- MS also sell Windows version with multi-keys, one server key with X client keys, but that's mostly only for professional (because even a bit cheaper, the bill should kill anyone). You can extend clients key, just by buying more clients keys.

note that my informations are outdate and i don't know the Windows 10 rules for oem, could had change.
just keep in mind: oem is cheaper always for the buyer, but may not always be cheaper when you buy it (you can sell oem version at normal prize, you're a fucking rat, and some do that, if you buy from computer specialist, make sure you pay oem prize and if you pay box prize, make sure to get the box and its content with it, it's easy to pay a video card box prize to end up with an oem one in your computer ; it's even worst for some hardware with oem limitation that you would discover later), oem is cheaper but at cost of packaging (well, not much an issue), and sometimes limit (better ask them!), and should only be sold by specialist, better watch out who sell it to not get stole. (i must say grey market exist, where a specialist sell to another specialist, and this one resell them behind, it's call grey market, i'm not sure about legality of such operations, and it's done more than you think, specially with cpus (mostly because of supply quantity in some countries), and they don't really like that, why, because a computer seller in France should buy cpus from Intel France supplier at Intel France prizes, when you could buy cpus from another computer reseller in India that brought them at Intel India's prize and resell them in France, with enough quantity it might be cheaper even with shipping costs add) ; it's not really an issue with your local computer reseller, it's an issue when you buy from random company in internet ; because if you need support from the maker, the result is random (don't be stupid, with serial number any maker knows to what country the product should had been sold).

I think, even some informations are outdated and need to be check, that should help make it clearer.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
Let's clarify oem then:

krinn wrote:
- box version is ~3.5x,4x the prize of oem version
Currently on Newegg, the OEM/Retail price difference for 10 Home is $20, and the difference for 10 Pro is $57.
krinn wrote:
Amazon may not be a computer specialist seller but doesn't themselves sold it, you use a vendor thru amazon, but this mean if any vendor is not a computer specialist in amazon and he is selling oem version, you better not buy it.
Not sure exactly what you're claiming here. Amazon does sell OEM:
Microsoft Software | Windows 10 Home 64 Bit System Builder OEM | PC Disc
Microsoft Windows 10 Pro 64 Bit System Builder OEM
Both specify "Ships from and sold by Amazon.com."
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The box OEM versions of windows are supposed to be bought by people who build a box, install windows, then sell the box. Ie, high end custom PCs. Technically buying it and installing on your own hardware is a violation. It also happens to be a violation that apparently no one cares about, including M$.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, clicking on the links supplied here and also doing my own searches, it seems that there's confusion about what "oem" means elsewhere too.

It would almost be easier to start over without using the term "OEM" at all. Reading krinn's post leaves me confused, and I already knew how it worked. On top of that, there's all sorts of talk about "home" vs "pro" and whatever. Those variants are available from both sources.

I think the key difference between the types of licenses is this:

Unmodified Microsoft installer image.

  1. Install media image created by Microsoft.
  2. The support and license key comes from Microsoft.
  3. Costs a lot because the buyer pays the full price of the Microsoft license.
  4. Installs on pretty much any computer that can run any Windows.



Pre-installed image that came with the computer

  1. Install media license agreement between hardware vendor and Microsoft.
  2. Install media starts the same as above.
  3. Hardware vendor adds their own tools, drivers and support apps
  4. Software vendors contract with the hardware vendor to install demo-ware, ad-ware and other "free" installers.
  5. The support and license key comes from the hardware vendor.
  6. Due to the contracts with software vendors, most or all of the Windows license fees are paid by the software vendors.
  7. Often keyed to the hardware by the hardware vendor to only work with a narrow group of machines.



I don't mean to change the discussion but it seems that the more we talk about it the less clarity there is.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks pjp for correction on amazon
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1035/5000
Thanks to all for the many helpful information.

As suggested, I downloaded a Win10.iso directly from Microsoft.
So I have done a clean Win10 installation on the M2-SSD. Afterwards, I removed the M2-SSD and stored it safely.
On the Samsung SSD I have repeated the installation of Win10. In the settings this message appeared:
"This system has been activated with a digital license". The input of a separate key was not necessary.
But in the .iso of Microsoft was also included advertising for games and xing.
However, the "digital license" makes it easy to delete or reinstall Windows 10.

I still have opensuse Leap 42.3 installed on the Samsung SSD. From there in chroot genntoo on a new, larger M2.
Only the kernel still makes difficulties. I'm still looking for the right settings for the motherboard. It's only a matter of time.

Thanks again to all for the detailed explanations!
Ma
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