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steveL
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OS Newbie wrote:
This would be a good statement if you were correct in your belief about understanding what I've been saying. But you're not correct about it. For instance, I have not said a single thing to indicate that I'm being cautious. But let's do drop it, at least let's have all of you drop it who seem to have a need to reframe my thinking.

With respect, please stop telling me I want to reframe your thinking, however you couch it.

Think what you like, do what you like. I merely used cautious to indicate acceptance of whatever your choices are.

Now you've made it clear you are in fact busy for a couple of months, it makes a lot more sense. You could have just said that straightaway, but it still has nothing to do with your mischaracterisation of me:
Quote:
Anybody who has any inclination to say anything to me about jumping in and installing Gentoo before I say anything else about it, is invited to stay out of this thread until such time as I have done that. In fact, I fervently request that he does so.

Again, I never said anything of the sort, and frankly I resent your characterisation.

Now I'll leave you to your thread. Sorry you've had such a hard time explaining you're busy for a bit.

edit: and I'm sorry for my part in making it difficult. It wasn't my intent; nor was it that of anyone else here.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:

Now you've made it clear you are in fact busy for a couple of months, it makes a lot more sense. You could have just said that straightaway, but it still has nothing to do with your mischaracterisation of me:
Quote:
Anybody who has any inclination to say anything to me about jumping in and installing Gentoo before I say anything else about it, is invited to stay out of this thread until such time as I have done that. In fact, I fervently request that he does so.

Again, I never said anything of the sort, and frankly I resent your characterisation.

Now I'll leave you to your thread. Sorry you've had such a hard time explaining you're busy for a bit.

edit: and I'm sorry for my part in making it difficult. It wasn't my intent; nor was it that of anyone else here.


I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I thought that anybody was trying to make anything difficult. I've never for a moment thought that anybody here had anything but the best intentions. And for the record, I wasn't mischaracterising you. I wasn't even talking about you directly.

If you go back to the beginning of this thread, you will find that I started out musing about the possibility of having some wise Gentoo wizard come over here for philosophical conversations, hopefully providing gentle nudges to keep me pointed in the right direction as I begin the journey down Gentoo lane. That would still be my favorite way to do it. Unfortunately, people weren't willing to allow me to entertain that notion. Many wanted to tell me that my fantasies about that were not the way in which to go about learning Gentoo. [This is precisely "reframing" my thinking].

I've tried, using great amounts of effort, to describe my perspective and inclinations. But at least as it pertains to causing anyone to accept that I should be allowed to think about this in any way that I wish (pure folly though they think it might be), or that the way in which I'm thinking about it might be of interest to some people, I haven't met with much success.

And it shouldn't be necessary for me to say that I will be busy for a bit, in order for people to accept that I may have good reasons for wanting to think about it the way I want to think about it. Having said that, I will point out that I did in fact say (a week ago) that I wouldn't get around to working with Gentoo until probably after the snow flies here. I think that I explained before that, that there were various reasons why I was approaching it the way I am. But I don't care to reread this whole thread just to figure out the details about that point.

In any case, it certainly seems to me that my personality and point of view don't mesh well here at all. And it also seems that lots of people here are hell-bent on getting me to see the error of my ways. I was expecting something very different. I was hoping that I could ask whether or not there were any Gentoo gurus around who I could befriend as a newbie open source person (but even though a OS newbie, also a somewhat kick-ass technical mofo in other regards), and have that question be answered only by such people. I could have easily withstood the resounding silence, had it turned out that nobody replied. Much to my surprise, people felt compelled to tell me that my thinking was flawed, that I needed to do it a different way, etc. I'd have had no problem had they said words to the effect that I should consider doing some installs, getting my hands dirty, etc. and explaining that because doing that would give forum members something concrete to relate to, and that by staying in such an abstract realm, I was filtering out lots of valuable input. But even if I had gotten such replies, it wouldn't have resulted in my wanting to do that.

I'll leave you now, and go back to my planer, paint brushes, nail gun, trenching machine, etc. When or if I ever get to the stage of doing Gentoo installs, I will come back to this forum, and see how it works out when I start asking newbie-ish questions. Meanwhile, maybe people can give a little thought to how they might interact with someone like Kurt Vonnegut, Wolfgang Mozart, or George Lucas, if someone that different came to this forum. It would be helpful to me, if they'd adopt frames of mind similar to the ones that they'd adopt to interact with someone as different from a typical Gentoo newbie as that.
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desultory
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OS Newbie wrote:
Thanks Chiitoo, for that reminder that not everyone here lacks the subtlety of mind necessary to follow the thoughts of others who approach things differently than the ways in which they do. I'm happy to hear that you've enjoyed reading this thread. I have enjoyed it overall myself. And as the originator of this thread, let me say that I welcome any ramblings that you feel compelled to ramble on about. If there are thread police (and by that, I mean Gentoo.org forum administrators) who want to think otherwise, let's hear from them.
Ramble away, there is a reason we call it Gentoo Chat. Oh... well, that is easily rectified. Not just because of the invitation to ramble, this sort of discussion is pretty much tailor made for Gentoo Chat.

Moved from Other Things Gentoo to Gentoo Chat.
OS Newbie wrote:
As to your comments about your difficulties with retaining what you read in books say, about C and C++, I think that you probably should dismiss that as being not a big deal. Maybe if or when you get excited about some project that will make good use of the information, it'll mean more to you and stick in your mind better. If not, so what? You're probably right about just coding more, at least more often. Personally though, I don't give any thought to C++, not that that will necessarily mean much to you. What kinds of programming are you into (why are you motivated to learn C and C++)? (Oh my God, maybe we'll need to start a different thread, or go to some C/C++ forum. Or you could PM me, if you want to talk about programming).
Might I suggest Off the Wall? Though do mention that you have a request, from me, to go light on the new guy hazing.
OS Newbie wrote:
And as far as I'm concerned, this is certainly a legitimate type of thread for the "Other things Gentoo" forum. In fact, if somebody wanted to talk about the sociological significance of the correlation between say, The GPAs of female Scottish grad students who are attracted to butt-ugly Gentoo Linux nerds, even that would seem a permissible thread topic here (not that I'm implying that there are any). Anybody who has a problem with people's interests or their approaches to things, should just mind their own business. People don't come here to have other forum members critique the ways in which their minds work. I certainly didn't. I was just hoping to find some people who could appreciate my perspective, and would want to be helpful to me. Having people say that I should stop thinking about what it is that I want to think about, and instead install Gentoo, and focus on what it is about Gentoo that they want me to focus on, is just painfully irritating.
Well, Other Things Gentoo is meant to be more direct support for things that do not quite readily fit in the other support sections, and the grad students would fairly well belong in Off the Wall, perhaps Gentoo Chat but Off the Wall would have something of a field day with it.

OS Newbie wrote:
Those two paragraphs comprise the wisest post that I've heard on any forum, in a long time. I will try to do exactly as your counterproposal suggests. But as an aside, let me point out again that I am not putting off installing Gentoo because I'm not ready. I don't need to research anything in more breadth or depth before doing so. Why I'm not installing it yet is simply because I have a long list of other things to do around here before winter weather hits, none of which has anything to do with Gentoo, Linux, or computer technology at all. I do have some time to ponder Linux-related things. And discussing those things can be to my mind, interesting and helpful, even without having first breathed life into any Gentoo systems. Why this inclination of mine results in having so many people here jump all over my posts in a completely inappropriate manner mystifies me.
Apologies, I had not meant to imply that you were not prepared to start installing, just that you were not starting an actual install yet for your own reasons. Besides, I was under the impression that the research was ongoing.

Chiitoo wrote:
desultory tends to say a lot of things...
Quite. A dreadful case of logorrhea, that one.

OS Newbie wrote:
Meanwhile, maybe people can give a little thought to how they might interact with someone like Kurt Vonnegut, Wolfgang Mozart, or George Lucas, if someone that different came to this forum. It would be helpful to me, if they'd adopt frames of mind similar to the ones that they'd adopt to interact with someone as different from a typical Gentoo newbie as that.
Recommending a pair of necromancers and a selection of existing users willing to work for signed toys would probably be even less helpful than my prior comments and observations in this topic, especially considering the decided sparsity of skilled public practitioners of necromancy.
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Navar
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings OS Newbie,

OS Newbie wrote:
[...] ordered [...] new edition of How Linux Works by Brian Ward.

Interesting. Hopefully it's consistent with current day trends. I've not read the 2004 edition (other than snippets); however, e.g., old-school command substitution using backticks `command` (as Brian used then) is considered far less preferrable in modern day to the $(command) form. Having used *nix for over a decade and a decade away from, it's amazing how often certain uses became ingrained (and if you're unlucky, later deprecated). I have to force myself to remember going the $(...) route (I don't spend hours daily writing shell scripts). It's ultimately a good thing as an open standards change encourages that mythical beast, portability, and avoids the hassles of undefined results along with necessities to escape the backticks in string use and nesting.

I find obtaining high quality technical books a significant challenge, especially in the last 2 decades. Editing seems non-existent. 'Encouragement' politic in attempts to sway thy gentle reader in a not-so-gentle manner have become the norm (ISBN-13: 978-0321278654 is a great example). All too often buried in 700+ pages of low signal-to-noise ratio. Books where the secret exercises for the reader are really about: understanding if the editor did anything, correcting all the various errata (which itself may comprise a book) and revising your already large BS filter. Determining if the author(s) really are imparting any real wisdom with what they may actually know or misleading you with what they don't (e.g. Schildt, ISBN-10: 0078817609). If you find any of exceptional value during your journey, please feel inclined to share and why.

I don't have this book, but may I suggest also finding a copy of UNIX and Linux System Administration Handbook? (ISBN-13: 978-0131480056) I'm going off a number of current day statements in the reviews that make me inclined to evaluate a copy. Up to a 3rd edition or more with multi-authors, great reviews, etc. has sometimes ended up being something worthy of being on the shelf.
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Chiitoo
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It might be a bit unnecessary... but just to be sure!

desultory wrote:
Chiitoo wrote:
desultory tends to say a lot of things...
Quite. A dreadful case of logorrhea, that one.

I of course meant only good things, the things that I would not be able to choose the wisest from.

I do believe you got that, but I felt clarifying for anyone else reading it could be in order! ^^


Speaking of books, I've been wanting to get something hand-held myself to read while away from the computer, something that is related to the topics discussed here, so thanks for the mentions on the specific books. Perhaps they're something I'll look into as well!
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Navar wrote:
Greetings OS Newbie,

OS Newbie wrote:
[...] ordered [...] new edition of How Linux Works by Brian Ward.

Interesting. Hopefully it's consistent with current day trends. The current one is not yet released. But most of the chapters are available (to prepurchase buyers) for download. I've not read the 2004 edition (other than snippets)... I ordered a copy of the old one too. I appreciate your input about all that. I last used Unix as a UC student around 1981. So I suspect that I'll have similar habits to break (less recently ingrained though, obviously).

I find obtaining high quality technical books a significant challenge, especially in the last 2 decades. Editing seems non-existent. 'Encouragement' politic in attempts to sway thy gentle reader in a not-so-gentle manner have become the norm (ISBN-13: 978-0321278654 is a great example). All too often buried in 700+ pages of low signal-to-noise ratio. Books where the secret exercises for the reader are really about: understanding if the editor did anything, correcting all the various errata (which itself may comprise a book) and revising your already large BS filter. Determining if the author(s) really are imparting any real wisdom with what they may actually know or misleading you with what they don't (e.g. Schildt, ISBN-10: 0078817609). I'm with you as regard those sentiments. In fact, owing partially to the very phenomenon about which you speak (and the accompanying hyena-like mentality of the marketplace), I baled out of the industry about six years ago, vowing to never return to it. But now it's been long enough to cause me to reflect on what it was about electronics and then later, computer technology that attracted me in the first place. So now I'm psyching up for an attempt at becoming familiar with current micro-scale hardware (as in tiny embeddable design things), programming languages like Ruby (for creating remote user interfaces), and brushing up on C. It remains to be seen whether or not this old dog can do those tricks.

If you find any of exceptional value during your journey, please feel inclined to share and why. For what it's worth, so far at least, I like what I've read from the new Brian Ward Linux book (but that comment comes from a technically inclined newbie); The Well-Grounded Rubyist (2nd Ed) by David A. Black; Rails4 in Action by Bigg, Katz and Klabnik; and 21st Century C by Ben Klemens. What I like about these is the comfortable, conversational approach that the authors take, and the fact that they seem to have perspectives that mesh well with mine, that being largely related to my aversion to the kind of hyper, low S/N stuff like in the "Extreme" example that you cited.

I don't have this book, but may I suggest also finding a copy of UNIX and Linux System Administration Handbook? (ISBN-13: 978-0131480056) I'm going off a number of current day statements in the reviews that make me inclined to evaluate a copy. Up to a 3rd edition or more with multi-authors, great reviews, etc. has sometimes ended up being something worthy of being on the shelf. I have a copy of that as an e-book. But I only read e-books as a last resort. So maybe I should peruse it to see whether or not to pop for a paper copy. Thanks for all your input.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chiitoo wrote:
It might be a bit unnecessary... but just to be sure!
It is, to be sure. I probably should have sent you a message just to avoid ambiguity: I was in not offended in any way whatsoever. That and at eight thousand posts and counting, I do tend to post a lot of things.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:51 am    Post subject: How I Learned Gentoo Reply with quote

Heres what i did.. Get a secondary laptop and dedicate it to building gentoo systems, using different use flags and tweaks first get a stable working system installed (this will take you a while probably) complete with a GUI and Networking that works (wifi/usb/eth) and once you have this accomplished fdisk and format the drive and begin reinstalling, follow the manual do everything it tells you, except once you have gone through it once, each time after work on adding tweaks and modifying config files to make the system tailored to your hardware. Try modifying others scripts they have used and tailor these to your own needs this can all be done using a TTY1 window and lynx (for web browsing if need be) by sticking to a TTY and not using a GUI for everything it will teach you to pipe things using less to avoid missing text Spam that you may want to see, how to use man pages to operate different commands, and by using portage to install software you can experiment with different settings, for example set your system to compile in RAM by modifying your fdisk config, you can write your own bash scripts with VIM and automate large and time consuming tasks to update your system and apply security breaches. And once you have that down you should setup your own mail server and start managing a web site (a blog or something) from your home pc this will teach you essential networking concepts and grant you your own email server as well as a web site you can use to talk about how corrupt and ridiculous our government has become. maybe 10 years from now you'll be ready to get into hacking and pen testing but (and dont laugh) before you know the system and how it works how can you exploit it efficiently? Learn a programing language as well and you'll be on your way to expert hacker script hustler status like me with mad skills and very low to non-existent social life.

THis is just what i did, but forcing myself to figure out bash commands by actually having to delve into your systems filesystem and list the available commands, followed by reading the man page for said command and doing all this via command line none the less will force-teach you to administrate your system and actually learn from mistakes as i always say, rm -r / and forget to actually type /home/Downloads/**** and your system gets recursively deleted from / on out, and when you remove a filesystem you spent a couple days or a week configuring you will not make the same mistake twice, I PROMISE you.. Screw not using root command use it up, tell your cpu what time it is and when u screw it up just reinstall youll stop screwing up eventually and learn to avoid reinstalls and when its gentoo and not debian those reinstalls even scripted are day+ processes... anyway this is how i learned, and I'm just now about ready to dive into programming and actually hacking if you would like to chat sometime i have IRC and like zero friends / assoicates in Real life who use Linux, and i never finished my physics degree so im lacking smart people to talk to as well..
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:05 am    Post subject: Re: How I Learned Gentoo Reply with quote

First of all, killakiwaski, thank you very much for replying to my thread. Being willing to do that makes you a rare individual indeed, at least as far as the membership of this forum is concerned (not that I'm complaining AT ALL about the fact that most people here have stopped replying to say that my expectations are unrealistic, etc. I truly appreciate and am happy about that).

Heres what i did.. Get a secondary laptop and dedicate it to building gentoo systems, using different use flags and tweaks first get a stable working system installed (this will take you a while probably) complete with a GUI and Networking that works (wifi/usb/eth) and once you have this accomplished fdisk and format the drive and begin reinstalling, follow the manual do everything it tells you, except once you have gone through it once, each time after work on adding tweaks and modifying config files to make the system tailored to your hardware. Try modifying others scripts they have used and tailor these to your own needs this can all be done using a TTY1 window and lynx (for web browsing if need be) by sticking to a TTY and not using a GUI for everything it will teach you to pipe things using less to avoid missing text Spam that you may want to see, how to use man pages to operate different commands, and by using portage to install software you can experiment with different settings, for example set your system to compile in RAM by modifying your fdisk config, you can write your own bash scripts with VIM and automate large and time consuming tasks to update your system and apply security breaches.
The above seems like a reasonable bit to say. But in my case, I'm not looking for any such instructions or recommendations. What I'm after is someone who wants to be present while I undertake such things, to be a helpful resource and cheerleader (not that I expect anyone here to be motivated to do this).


As for this...
And once you have that down you should setup your own mail server and start managing a web site (a blog or something) from your home pc this will teach you essential networking concepts and grant you your own email server as well as a web site you can use to talk about how corrupt and ridiculous our government has become. maybe 10 years from now you'll be ready to get into hacking and pen testing but (and dont laugh) before you know the system and how it works how can you exploit it efficiently? Learn a programing language as well and you'll be on your way to expert hacker script hustler status like me with mad skills and very low to non-existent social life.
...I already AM a programmer (have been since the 1970s), and am a competent hardware hacker as well. I have zero interest in exploring security concepts that are used by the world's (system penetration) hackers (neither black hats nor white hats). Having started out in life as a submarine navy crypto electronics tech, I've enjoyed as much of that line of thinking as I'd ever care to.

I have experienced this sort of pain also:
THis is just what i did, but forcing myself to figure out bash commands by actually having to delve into your systems filesystem and list the available commands, followed by reading the man page for said command and doing all this via command line none the less will force-teach you to administrate your system and actually learn from mistakes as i always say, rm -r / and forget to actually type /home/Downloads/**** and your system gets recursively deleted from / on out, and when you remove a filesystem you spent a couple days or a week configuring you will not make the same mistake twice, I PROMISE you.. Screw not using root command use it up, tell your cpu what time it is and when u screw it up just reinstall youll stop screwing up eventually and learn to avoid reinstalls and when its gentoo and not debian those reinstalls even scripted are day+ processes... anyway this is how i learned, and I'm just now about ready to dive into programming and actually hacking...

if you would like to chat sometime i have IRC and like zero friends / assoicates in Real life who use Linux, and i never finished my physics degree so im lacking smart people to talk to as well..
I would definitely enjoy chatting with you. Send me a PM, and we'll set something up.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Navar wrote:
Greetings OS Newbie,

OS Newbie wrote:
[...] ordered [...] new edition of How Linux Works by Brian Ward.

Interesting. Hopefully it's consistent with current day trends. I've not read the 2004 edition (other than snippets); however, e.g., old-school command substitution using backticks `command` (as Brian used then) is considered far less preferrable in modern day to the $(command) form. Having used *nix for over a decade and a decade away from, it's amazing how often certain uses became ingrained (and if you're unlucky, later deprecated). I have to force myself to remember going the $(...) route (I don't spend hours daily writing shell scripts). It's ultimately a good thing as an open standards change encourages that mythical beast, portability, and avoids the hassles of undefined results along with necessities to escape the backticks in string use and nesting.

I find obtaining high quality technical books a significant challenge, especially in the last 2 decades. Editing seems non-existent. 'Encouragement' politic in attempts to sway thy gentle reader in a not-so-gentle manner have become the norm (ISBN-13: 978-0321278654 is a great example). All too often buried in 700+ pages of low signal-to-noise ratio. Books where the secret exercises for the reader are really about: understanding if the editor did anything, correcting all the various errata (which itself may comprise a book) and revising your already large BS filter. Determining if the author(s) really are imparting any real wisdom with what they may actually know or misleading you with what they don't (e.g. Schildt, ISBN-10: 0078817609). If you find any of exceptional value during your journey, please feel inclined to share and why.

I don't have this book, but may I suggest also finding a copy of UNIX and Linux System Administration Handbook? (ISBN-13: 978-0131480056) I'm going off a number of current day statements in the reviews that make me inclined to evaluate a copy. Up to a 3rd edition or more with multi-authors, great reviews, etc. has sometimes ended up being something worthy of being on the shelf.

Navar: I realize that this is a long time after you left your intelligently crafted post. And I apologize for not replying to it at the time. In any case, I appreciate your thoughts, particularly your take on the issues pertaining to the search for good technical books. It still makes me smile to read your comments. I will tell you if I find any that I think you might appreciate, though it seems to me that your level of Linux/Unix sophistication is far enough above mine that I doubt that there's much probability of that coming to pass, at least in the sense of providing you with useful info. I will mention any titles that I encounter that eschew "Encouragement politic," have a relatively high S/N ratio, or that don't require a large BS filter. I figure that you might like hearing about books along those lines, that were found useful to a newbie who values such characteristics in a technical writer. For what it's worth, I have ordered the 5th edition of the Unix and Linux System Administration Handbook. That looks like one that I will find valuable as I ramp up my one-man effort here. Thanks for mentioning that one.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OS Newbie,

Linux Sea is worth a read. Its written around Gentoo too.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
OS Newbie,

Linux Sea is worth a read. Its written around Gentoo too.

Thanks! I'll read that. I'm printing out the pdf file, to read on a couch by a crackling fire.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OS Newbie wrote:
For what it's worth, I have ordered the 5th edition of the Unix and Linux System Administration Handbook. That looks like one that I will find valuable as I ramp up my one-man effort here. Thanks for mentioning that one.
I cannot recommend "The UNIX Programming Environment" (Kernighan & Pike, 1984) highly enough, to start with. The first 6 chapters are an introduction to working with UNIX, the shell (essential knowledge. Just don't use $* like they do [from the days of 14-char limit on filenames]; stick with "$@" as #bash teaches) and awk.

"The AWK Programming Language" (Aho, Kernighan & Weinberger, 2nd ed) is simply beautiful, and contains some wonderful algorithms.
It is also aimed at people processing text, which the vast majority of I/O is about. Since awk was developed on UNIX, the book discusses standard tools like sort, and how to pipeline effectively.
If you consider its provenance (dragon-book, anyone?) then you should realise it's a gem. Those guys developed the underlying theory (derived from Chomsky's work in the 1950s) into practical techniques and proofs, for Core Computing as taught in CSci today.

If you're a programmer, then you'd move on to APUE, if you know Standard C already. If not, or if you don't have a copy of the second edition, "The C Programming Language" (Kernighan & Ritchie, 2nd ed) is essential.
Then APUE, "Advanced Programming in the UNIX Environment" (Stevens & Rago) (2nd ed, 2004 is the one to get.)
I recommend reading it along with Bach's "The Design of the UNIX Operating System" (1986) which will show you how things work under the hood.
Cannot stress enough: you'll want a copy of "Lions' Commentary on UNIX 6th edition, with Source Code" (John Lions, 1977, unpublished till 1996)-- highly recommended, for both code and commentary: apparently "an entire generation of UNIX programmers" learnt to code from photocopied versions of it. Hard reading without Bach, mind.

If you have a desire to learn in-depth, shop around for an old copy of Steven's "UNIX Network Programming" from 1990. That's the original, it's in the same series as both UPE and Bach (series editor: Brian Kernighan) and should be dirt-cheap, if you can find it.

Should be enough to get going (took me over 7 years to get my head round that lot, and I can't say I grok it all, yet.)
You'll want some POSIX books, if you intend to program, but not right now.

If you really want to understand the underlying design of both UNIX and C (they grew together), and/or you want a true classic of Computing, get hold of "Software Tools" (Kernighan & Plauger, 1976) - the Ratfor edition, not the Pascal one.
Again, absolutely essential for any programmer.

HTH,
steveL

edit: APUE is Advanced, not "Advance"


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
OS Newbie wrote:
For what it's worth, I have ordered the 5th edition of the Unix and Linux System Administration Handbook. That looks like one that I will find valuable as I ramp up my one-man effort here. Thanks for mentioning that one.
I cannot recommend "The UNIX Programming Environment" (Kernighan & Pike, 1984) highly enough, to start with. The first 6 chapters are an introduction to working with UNIX, the shell (essential knowledge. Just don't use $* like they do [from the days of 14-char limit on filenames]; stick with "$@" as #bash teaches) and awk.

"The AWK Programming Language" (Aho, Kernighan & Weinberger, 2nd ed) is simply beautiful, and contains some wonderful algorithms.
It is also aimed at people processing text, which the vast majority of I/O is about. Since awk was developed on UNIX, the book discusses standard tools like sort, and how to pipeline effectively.
If you consider its provenance (dragon-book, anyone?) then you should realise it's a gem. Those guys developed the underlying theory (derived from Chomsky's work in the 1950s) into practical techniques and proofs, for Core Computing as taught in CSci today.

If you're a programmer, then you'd move on to APUE, if you know Standard C already. If not, or if you don't have a copy of the second edition, "The C Programming Language" (Kernighan & Ritchie, 2nd ed) is essential.
Then APUE, "Advance Programming in the UNIX Environment" (Stevens & Rago) (2nd ed, 2004 is the one to get.)
I recommend reading it along with Bach's "The Design of the UNIX Operating System" (1986) which will show you how things work under the hood.
Cannot stress enough: you'll want a copy of "Lions' Commentary on UNIX 6th edition, with Source Code" (John Lions, 1977, unpublished till 1996)-- highly recommended, for both code and commentary: apparently "an entire generation of UNIX programmers" learnt to code from photocopied versions of it. Hard reading without Bach, mind.

If you have a desire to learn in-depth, shop around for an old copy of Steven's "UNIX Network Programming" from 1990. That's the original, it's in the same series as both UPE and Bach (series editor: Brian Kernighan) and should be dirt-cheap, if you can find it.

Should be enough to get going (took me over 7 years to get my head round that lot, and I can't say I grok it all, yet.)
You'll want some POSIX books, if you intend to program, but not right now.

If you really want to understand the underlying design of both UNIX and C (they grew together), and/or you want a true classic of Computing, get hold of "Software Tools" (Kernighan & Plauger, 1976) - the Ratfor edition, not the Pascal one.
Again, absolutely essential for any programmer.

HTH,
steveL


Thanks much, steveL! Your post is very much appreciated! I have a few of the books you mention, but in the cases of some, I've only skimmed them (I'll correct that). Again though, THANKS for your input!
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OS Newbie wrote:
I have a few of the books you mention, but in the cases of some, I've only skimmed them (I'll correct that). Again though, THANKS for your input!
Excellent :-) [1]

If you want to talk about those books, and the understanding they impart, I'm always up for that :-)

Oh, the other channel you really need to know about, is ##posix -- see the books link in the /topic.

You'll find many of the titles I gave above there, plus some more.

Lurking there is highly recommended, as is paying very close attention to anything twkm says. If he mentions a function or utility, be damned sure to read the manpages for it (preferably the POSIX ones first. use MANSECT.)

Don't forget: #bash are your (rather grumpy;) friends.

--
[1] Think "Bill and Ted" -- not Mr. Burns.. ;-)
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Um. The K&R is essential for C, and Stroustrup's Annotated Reference for C++. Some of those others I have too, not sure exactly how relevant they all are now.

The ones written more than a decade ago may be out-of-date on a lot of important changes. Like the init system, I'm pretty sure nothing uses the init system from that far back, and even if the same system is used they've all migrated.

That's not strictly related to programming end-user apps but if you're doing system programming it's entirely relevant.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks steveL and 1clue, for your helpful input.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Don't forget: #bash are your (rather grumpy;) friends.
Another channel which might be worth considering would be #friendly-coders, on freenode.
steveL wrote:
[1] Think "Bill and Ted" -- not Mr. Burns.. ;-)
Too late, connections can so easily form before footnotes can be reached, or at least actually consulted.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You did circuit design?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Document wrote:
You did circuit design?

Yes, still do. Creating hardware/software devices, whether they're to be products or just my own secret creations is one of my favorite things to do.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OS Newbie wrote:
The_Document wrote:
You did circuit design?

Yes, still do. Creating hardware/software devices, whether they're to be products or just my own secret creations is one of my favorite things to do.


I read that a flat (pancake) transformer with 1 turns primary and secondary coil is flat logarithmic spiral following this turn sytle

1. 1/8in
2. 1/4in
3. 1/2in
4. 1in
5. 1-1/8
6. 1-1/4
ect...

will rectify a very specific frequency WHICH CAN BE found with a tunable inductor OR by sweeping a variable frequency generator with a scope connected to secondary coil waiting for voltage to become DC, have a lab were you can test this?
I read this is Teslas highest coil development which he did not get a patent for since he had to withdraw because Morgan threatened him.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultory wrote:
steveL wrote:
Don't forget: #bash are your (rather grumpy;) friends.
Another channel which might be worth considering would be #friendly-coders, on freenode.
steveL wrote:
[1] Think "Bill and Ted" -- not Mr. Burns.. ;-)
Too late, connections can so easily form before footnotes can be reached, or at least actually consulted.

Your "Too late..." comment strikes me as the kind of thing that I would normally appreciate (if I could wrap my mind around it). I've returned to it afresh, with a cup of coffee in hand. Unfortunately, so far, it remains beyond my grasp.

In any case, I have collected almost all of the books that have been recommended by helpful people here (and have also discovered other interesting ones). All that remains for me to do is to build a few Gentoo systems from the many cobweb-covered computer carcasses strewn around (figuring out combinations of video cards, disk controllers, drivers, etc.), slog my way through the books, and write lots of test code to figure out what's what. I'll see whether or not I can do that before I die of old age.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Document wrote:
OS Newbie wrote:
The_Document wrote:
You did circuit design?

Yes, still do. Creating hardware/software devices, whether they're to be products or just my own secret creations is one of my favorite things to do.


I read that a flat (pancake) transformer with 1 turns primary and secondary coil is flat logarithmic spiral following this turn style...

That looks like an interesting thing to play with. And normally, I could go try it easily. But unfortunately, my electronics lab is a shambles, being dismantled and moved to a new location. Thanks for mentioning the idea though. I will play around with that when I can. Do you have any documentation on the coil? At some point, I may just take an oscilloscope to my ham radio shack. I could use a transmitter to radiate a manually variable frequency, and watch the reaction of the coil. Of course, it would be easy to try lots of different coil config's. But I'd like to see what Tesla was specifically up to.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OS Newbie wrote:
The_Document wrote:
OS Newbie wrote:
The_Document wrote:
You did circuit design?

Yes, still do. Creating hardware/software devices, whether they're to be products or just my own secret creations is one of my favorite things to do.


I read that a flat (pancake) transformer with 1 turns primary and secondary coil is flat logarithmic spiral following this turn style...

That looks like an interesting thing to play with. And normally, I could go try it easily. But unfortunately, my electronics lab is a shambles, being dismantled and moved to a new location. Thanks for mentioning the idea though. I will play around with that when I can. Do you have any documentation on the coil? At some point, I may just take an oscilloscope to my ham radio shack. I could use a transmitter to radiate a manually variable frequency, and watch the reaction of the coil. Of course, it would be easy to try lots of different coil config's. But I'd like to see what Tesla was specifically up to.


I am happy to hear you do have a lab and even happier to learn you are a HAM operator, but somewhat disspaointed about labs condition althought its only natural as its in the process of being relocated.

Pancake coils fed with high frequency above 800kc normally produce blue coronoa discharge and as we all know from basic theory, static discharge from electrostatic machines is always white corona. Whats called "phantom streamers" is something which baffled scientists working with these coils and I think it was ONLY tesla that figured out that they are infact static discharge and then he was inspired to make the coil rectifier that I described with the logarythmic spiral secondary coil.

I saw videos and images of these discharges on http://electrotherapymuseum.com/ but that site is down, perhaps if its up I will link images and videos. I also have working understanding of teslas highly controversial things like this:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/e3/39/8d/e3398d94ad161ef77481089417535d50--nikola-tesla-inventions-tesla-s.jpg

but it requires a lab and visits to a machine shop.

Have a read for your self:
https://vault.fbi.gov/nikola-tesla

good stuff, if only qemu worked I would OCR those documents and make those scans legible.


Last edited by The_Document on Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:58 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Document,

The Wayback Machine has http://electrotherapymuseum.com/
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those that do backups
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