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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:20 am    Post subject: MPEG Is Finally Dead Reply with quote

I just now saw the news that Apple has joined the Alliance for Open Media, and that the finishing touches are being put on the AV1 codec. Google expects to begin transitioning immediately.

For those of you who don't know, Apple was the last major holdout.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, so, asking for a friend... what difference does it make?

I can't say as I'm aware of how this affected me at all.

I mean my friend doesn't know.

How it affected him, not me.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who's your friend and what are his/her interests? For FOSS advocates, this is a monumental occasion. The last pillar of multimedia compression is finally royalty-free: Video. The codec is called AV1.

I guess your friend will enjoy the reduced bitrates over HEVC, and the (maybe) cheaper devices.

EDIT: Knew It
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cokey
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Who's your friend and what are his/her interests? For FOSS advocates, this is a monumental occasion. The last pillar of multimedia compression is finally royalty-free: Video. The codec is called AV1.

I guess your friend will enjoy the reduced bitrates over HEVC, and the (maybe) cheaper devices.

EDIT: Knew It
woohoo! Usually if Google gets fully behind something others will follow. 8K web for everyone! I wonder if there is a YouTube beta example like there was with WebM before the switch from Flash?
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pjp
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Who's your friend and what are his/her interests? For FOSS advocates, this is a monumental occasion. The last pillar of multimedia compression is finally royalty-free: Video. The codec is called AV1.

I guess your friend will enjoy the reduced bitrates over HEVC, and the (maybe) cheaper devices.

EDIT: Knew It
Hmm, thanks.

According to this 2012 simplification, cost seems minimal.
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Ronaldlees
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I doubt that MPEG is fully dead, but Apple will certainly make the Theora/Vorbis->Vpx/Vorbis->AV1/Opus chain of codecs more mainstream. With both Youtube and Netflix using Vp9 already, and Applie coming on board, it's looking good for FOSS video. AV1 is an incremental betterment of Vp9/Vorbis, using a webm container that will now hold a stream compressed with the OPUS audio codec - a very efficient design for negotiating latency issues i.e. internet streaming - and containing two codecs in one (from a combination of a Silk/Skype derivation and their own design, which are switched depending on conditions).

I have been completely switched over to this for years, but it's good to see some more big players are finally getting on board. There's still the potential for litigation, but at least Google promises to foot the bill for any such unforeseen problem.

I just realized I've been shadow-banned. Bye!
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ronaldlees wrote:
I just realized I've been shadow-banned. Bye!


:lol: :lol: :lol:

I assume you're referring to the fact that your post count isn't going up. Posts in OTW do not count. You must actually contribute in the rest of the forums to increase your post count and forum rank.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read that and thought "Wtf is a shadow ban?" Never would have come up with that.

I advocated for elimination of postcount during the Great Reorg.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only thing possibly left for MPEG is ATSC3, but I haven't even seen any sets with that.

EDIT: If memory serves, MPEG-LA tried a really massive price hike in either 2014 or 2015, and that's when the entire industry gave them the finger.
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erm67
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did they fix also the problem with encoding times? VP9/hevc are ok but encoding is too resource intensive to be used, for example, to compress&stream a realtime feed .... That's why x264 still has a role in the near future since with strict time constraint it offers the best results.

https://blogs.gnome.org/rbultje/2015/09/28/vp9-encodingdecoding-performance-vs-hevch-264/

Quote:
So what do these results mean? Well, first of all, yeah, sure, x265/libvpx are ~50% better than x264, as claimed. But, they are also 10-20x slower. That’s not good! If you normalize for equal CPU usage, you’ll notice that (again looking at the x264 point at 0%, 0.61 sec/frame), if you look at intersected points of the red line (libvpx) vertically above it, the bitrate improvement normalized for CPU usage is only 20-30%. For x265, it’s only 10%. What’s worse is that the x265 line actually intersects with the x264 line just left of that. In practice, that means that if your CPU usage target for x264 is anything faster than veryslow, you basically want to keep using x264, since at that same CPU usage target, x265 will give worse quality for the same bitrate than x264. The story for libvpx is slightly better than for x265, but it’s clear that these next-gen codecs have a lot of work left in this area. This isn’t surprising, x264 is a lot more mature software than x265/libvpx.

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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at a recent presentation, the priority for AV1 is hardware simplicity. Nvidia, Intel, AMD, Qualcomm, ARM, etc all have a lot of sway here.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hardware decoding probably ....
Quote:
Tests from Netflix showed that, based on measurements with PSNR and VMAF at 720p, AV1 could be about 25% more efficient than VP9 (libvpx), at the expense of a 4–10 fold increase in encoding time.


Now if encoding time in AV1 is 10 fold higher than VP9 that ihas encoding times10 fold higher than MPEG4/AVC it means AV1 is 100 times slower than AVC........ :roll: :roll: or maybe not :wink:
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How can MPEG be dead if new compression codecs like H.265 comply with MPEG standard? Are you saying MPEG-2 is dead?
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaglover wrote:
How can MPEG be dead if new compression codecs like H.265 comply with MPEG standard?

This may sound like a stupid question at first, but after a little research, you will likely realize that it's actually quite interesting: Just who is MPEG going to have as a customer for licensing H.265/HEVC?
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cokey
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
I read that and thought "Wtf is a shadow ban?" Never would have come up with that.

I advocated for elimination of postcount during the Great Reorg.
ahhhhh, the great reorg of 2006. When I went down from about 12,000 posts to about 2,500 :(

Back in those days it was me, NeddySeagoon, pjp, ebrostig and avenj up there
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
Ronaldlees wrote:
I just realized I've been shadow-banned. Bye!


:lol: :lol: :lol:

I assume you're referring to the fact that your post count isn't going up. Posts in OTW do not count. You must actually contribute in the rest of the forums to increase your post count and forum rank.

What a surreal thing to ragequit a website over. It's like getting triggered at df -i showing numbers that don't match the number of files on disk.


wswartzendruber wrote:
Jaglover wrote:
How can MPEG be dead if new compression codecs like H.265 comply with MPEG standard?

This may sound like a stupid question at first, but after a little research, you will likely realize that it's actually quite interesting: Just who is MPEG going to have as a customer for licensing H.265/HEVC?

They're trying to shove this crap into DVB, I believe, so it looks like this bridge is getting sold to TV manufacturers.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Jaglover wrote:
How can MPEG be dead if new compression codecs like H.265 comply with MPEG standard?

This may sound like a stupid question at first, but after a little research, you will likely realize that it's actually quite interesting: Just who is MPEG going to have as a customer for licensing H.265/HEVC?

Netflix streams in h.264, h.265 or vp9 depending on the device (I get h.265 on my LG TV), DVB-T2 uses HEVC in Europe, the first channels are already available, also DVB-S2X uses HEVC the few existing 4k channels uses HEVC already. Most of Europe will switch to HEVC in the next few years.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
You must actually contribute in the rest of the forums to increase your post count and forum rank.


Or ask for help enough times.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It'll be some time before we see AV1 ASICs on consumer devices. I look forward to it. But until then, h.265 will do just fine for the heavy stuff.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
Muso wrote:
You must actually contribute in the rest of the forums to increase your post count and forum rank.


Or ask for help enough times.


:)
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