View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
Naib Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 6051 Location: Removed by Neddy
|
Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:49 pm Post subject: Gentoo on a 486 |
|
|
Well someone was crazy enough...
http://yeokhengmeng.com/2018/01/make-the-486-great-again/
Quote: | What is the oldest x86 processor that is still supported by a modern Linux kernel in present time?
I asked the above quiz question during the Geekcamp tech conference in Nov 2017 during my emcee role. The theoretical answer as you can glean from the title of this post is the 486 which was first released in 1989. I determined that fact from this article where support for the 386 was dropped in Dec 2012.
To get you interested, here is the result of my effort. |
_________________
Quote: | Removed by Chiitoo |
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
soitgoes0745 n00b
Joined: 08 May 2017 Posts: 28 Location: Dallas
|
Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
I saw this on hackernews yesterday. Pretty cool. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
pjp Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002 Posts: 20067
|
Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
Quote: | The issue with modern Linux distributions like Debian/Ubuntu/Arch is that they distribute compiled binary packages. Typically this is good enough as compiling every single package you want from scratch is time consuming and most people ain’t got the time for that. |
And, yes, I thought of /that/ video. _________________ Quis separabit? Quo animo? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jd2066 Apprentice
Joined: 04 Jun 2006 Posts: 155
|
Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
Quote: | Installing Gentoo is tough and time-consuming under the best of times even for modern PCs. Doing it for an ancient PC like this further adds to the complexity.
[...]
This is compounded by the fact that this was the first time I installed Gentoo Linux and was unfamiliar with the install steps.
|
Wow, first time installing Gentoo Linux and doing so on a 486
My first computer was a 486 DX (If I recall correctly) running Windows 3.11 that I got as a kid from my Grandma in the early 90s |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Ant P. Watchman
Joined: 18 Apr 2009 Posts: 6920
|
Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
11 minutes to run OpenRC startup and 5 to run shutdown, ow. No wonder so many people stick with 0.17… |
|
Back to top |
|
|
krinn Watchman
Joined: 02 May 2003 Posts: 7470
|
Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I love this kind of weirdo project, just seeing the 486 trying to handle ssh with a "WTF all those hash and key computation will kill me!" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
NeddySeagoon Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003 Posts: 54300 Location: 56N 3W
|
Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
At least its a DX. The original 486SX in that system was missing the FPU and kernel FPU emulation was removed a long time ago.
Not that there is any FPU code in the kernel but it may well try to use the registers.
The 80 wire IDE cables being a problem is expected.
The motherboard will have the pin used to ground the extra wires left floating ... all those 40 antennas :) _________________ Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
khayyam Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012 Posts: 6227 Location: Room 101
|
Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
NeddySeagoon wrote: | At least its a DX. The original 486SX in that system was missing the FPU and kernel FPU emulation was removed a long time ago. |
Neddy ... the pic there shows a "33Mhz 486SX".
best ... khay |
|
Back to top |
|
|
rufnut Apprentice
Joined: 16 May 2005 Posts: 252
|
Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I haven't booted my oldie for a few years,
The machine has a "3.5" Floppy that hands over to an old DSL live CD to boot, which takes a few minutes.
Here is an old log:
Code: |
-bash-2.05b# cat /proc/* << probably not wise, I cut the noise out.
ramdisk_size=100000 init=/etc/init lang=us apm=power-off vga=791 initrd=minirt24.gz nomce noapic quiet BOOT_IMAGE=knoppix BOOT_IMAGE=linux24
processor : 0
vendor_id : AuthenticAMD
cpu family : 4
model : 14
model name : Am5x86-WT
stepping : 4
fdiv_bug : no
hlt_bug : no
f00f_bug : no
coma_bug : no
fpu : yes
fpu_exception : yes
cpuid level : 1
wp : yes
flags : fpu
bogomips : 66.35
Character devices:
1 mem
2 pty
3 ttyp
4 ttyS
5 cua
7 vcs
10 misc
13 input
14 sound
29 fb
128 ptm
136 pts
162 raw
171 ieee1394
180 usb
Block devices:
1 ramdisk
2 fd
11 sr
22 ide1
240 cloop
4: cascade
0-0 Linux [kernel]
nodev rootfs
nodev bdev
nodev proc
nodev sockfs
nodev tmpfs
nodev shm
nodev pipefs
ext2
nodev ramfs
vfat
iso9660
nodev devpts
nodev unionfs
nodev usbdevfs
nodev usbfs
CPU0
0: 360718 XT-PIC timer
1: 2623 XT-PIC keyboard
2: 0 XT-PIC cascade
4: 457 XT-PIC NE2000
8: 0 XT-PIC rtc
15: 2201 XT-PIC ide1
NMI: 0
LOC: 0
ERR: 0
MIS: 0
00000000-0009efff : System RAM
000a0000-000bffff : Video RAM area
000c0000-000c7fff : Video ROM
000d8000-000db7ff : Extension ROM
000f0000-000fffff : System ROM
00100000-0203ffff : System RAM
00100000-0025aab0 : Kernel code
0025aab1-002e8803 : Kernel data
0000-001f : dma1
0020-003f : pic1
0040-0043 : timer0
0050-0053 : timer1
0060-006f : keyboard
0070-007f : rtc
0080-008f : dma page reg
00a0-00bf : pic2
00c0-00df : dma2
00f0-00ff : fpu
0170-0177 : ide1
0300-031f : eth0
0376-0376 : ide1
03c0-03df : vga+
-bash-2.05b# lsmod
Module Size Used by Not tainted
ne 6624 1
8390 6368 0 [ne]
crc32 2816 0 [8390]
soundcore 3428 0 (autoclean)
mousedev 3832 0 (unused)
hid 22788 0 (unused)
input 3168 0 [mousedev hid]
usbcore 58240 0 [hid]
unionfs 67168 7
serial 52228 0 (autoclean)
ieee1394 183300 0
pcmcia_core 39840 0
rtc 7036 0 (autoclean)
cloop 39204 2
ide-cd 28576 0
ide-scsi 9040 1
-bash-2.05b#
|
It does still boot but stops at the BIOS checksum.
I have no BIOS Backup Battery installed, so it does not leak on the Mobo.
Also need to find my AT keyboard or adapter to ps2 << IIRC adapters might not work.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
NeddySeagoon Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003 Posts: 54300 Location: 56N 3W
|
Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
khayyam,
Indeed it does. The writeup says it was upgraded to an AMD 5x86 at 133 MHz before purchase. _________________ Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
khayyam Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012 Posts: 6227 Location: Room 101
|
Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
NeddySeagoon wrote: | Indeed it does. The writeup says it was upgraded to an AMD 5x86 at 133 MHz before purchase. |
Neddy ... hehe, didn't read past the first couple of paragraphs, doh!
best ... khay |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Tony0945 Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006 Posts: 5127 Location: Illinois, USA
|
Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
jd2066 wrote: | My first computer was a 486 DX (If I recall correctly) running Windows 3.11 that I got as a kid from my Grandma in the early 90s | Wow! What a nice Grandma. I bought mine June 29, 1994 and it cost me $3,507 direct from Micron computer. 486DX4-100 (blazing fast) and with a huge 16MB (sic) RAM. The hard drive was a 540MB Conner. formatted 512MB because that's all that WfW 3.11 would handle. I never ran Gentoo but I did run Caldera later. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
steve_v Guru
Joined: 20 Jun 2004 Posts: 388 Location: New Zealand
|
Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I ran Gentoo on a DX4/120 with 21MB RAM way back when. It took a while to install.
Still got a DX4/100 running DSL, off my very first (80MB) IDE HDD. Says something to reliability that that drive still works. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Zucca Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 3357 Location: Rasi, Finland
|
Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hm. Ok. I have a -89 manufactured CRT here... Rest of the hardware should be easy to obtain.
Thinking of accepting the challenge. :D _________________ ..: Zucca :..
Gentoo IRC channels reside on Libera.Chat.
--
Quote: | I am NaN! I am a man! |
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
eccerr0r Watchman
Joined: 01 Jul 2004 Posts: 9690 Location: almost Mile High in the USA
|
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Is it really a modern kernel?
ISA drivers have been removed from the kernel since 3.4-ish? I have a 486DX4/100 motherboard with 48MB RAM on it to try, though without modern ISA drivers, it will be tough to do anything with it. I still have the 1MB ATI Mach8 video card that I used to run X on...
I recall that a ~ P100 was the slowest machine that I could even try to decompress a MP3 in real time, so indeed those music files needed to be decompressed ahead of time. _________________ Intel Core i7 2700K/Radeon R7 250/24GB DDR3/256GB SSD
What am I supposed watching? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
NeddySeagoon Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003 Posts: 54300 Location: 56N 3W
|
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
eccerr0r,
That's ISA Sound Card Support in 4.14.1
Code: | ┌────────────────────────────── ISA sound devices ───────────────────────────────┐
│ CONFIG_SND_ISA: │
│ │
│ Support for sound devices connected via the ISA bus. │
│ │
│ Symbol: SND_ISA [=y] │
│ Type : boolean │
│ Prompt: ISA sound devices │
│ Location: │
│ -> Device Drivers │
│ -> Sound card support (SOUND [=y]) │
│ -> Advanced Linux Sound Architecture (SND [=y]) |
Even the very old ISA PATA Drivers are still there.
Code: | │ CONFIG_PATA_LEGACY: │
│ │
│ This option enables support for ISA/VLB/PCI bus legacy PATA │
│ ports and allows them to be accessed via the new ATA layer. │
│ |
VLB ... remember that hack. An expansion card on the processor bus.
The ISA stuff will be well hidden by the options it depends on.
I didn't look in 4.15.2 as I don't want to trash my current .config. _________________ Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Zucca Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 3357 Location: Rasi, Finland
|
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
eccerr0r wrote: | I recall that a ~ P100 was the slowest machine that I could even try to decompress a MP3 in real time, so indeed those music files needed to be decompressed ahead of time. | Oh. Brings back some memories...
I remember just being able to play some low bitrate mp3's on my PowerPC 603 75MHz inside Macintosh Performa 5200.
In those times it took about half hour to download a one 3MB mp3. I remember mp3's were distributed on plain websites back then. You only needed to ... "Altavista" the song name and add mp3 to the end of the search string.
Not so fun times. Macs were horrible to use at that time. _________________ ..: Zucca :..
Gentoo IRC channels reside on Libera.Chat.
--
Quote: | I am NaN! I am a man! |
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
eccerr0r Watchman
Joined: 01 Jul 2004 Posts: 9690 Location: almost Mile High in the USA
|
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
NeddySeagoon wrote: | The ISA stuff will be well hidden by the options it depends on.
I didn't look in 4.15.2 as I don't want to trash my current .config. |
Some are REALLY hidden, meaning, removed.
Try finding the 3com/3c503.c and amd/depca.c Ethernet drivers (I especially like my DEC depca, it's about as good/fast as the 3c509 on ISA despite it using an AMD LANCE ethernet chip and everything is through hole; it even has a full 64K memory mapped buffer). The 3c503 and especially 3c501 probably deserve to go out to pasture but even the 3c503 is an acceptable card even if it maxes out at ~300KB/sec. Note that none of these cards support PnP... and the only ISA ethernet cards I currently have are the depca and the 3c503, which was really depressing when I couldn't find the driver for either of them :(
Fortunately the ISA core is still there, but with these drivers not part of the main distribution, they will bitrot even if you grab an old copy. I do wonder how much bitrot occurred with the Mach8 driver, though likely this driver requires UMS which I don't know if things still support...
---
Another thing about the P100 playing MP3s - this was running Linux trying merely 128Kb/sec MP3. The preemptions seems to cost quite a bit of cpu time and/or was not well optimized. I forgot if I was trying to use mpg123 or using x11amp at the time, chances are, this was trying to run the really bloated X11 environment.
I was also experimenting with playing sound with the old pcsp driver (don't know about the current new one), a 486/33 running Linux is just barely fast enough to play MOD files with its mixing. At least this is purely integer operations. _________________ Intel Core i7 2700K/Radeon R7 250/24GB DDR3/256GB SSD
What am I supposed watching? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
steve_v Guru
Joined: 20 Jun 2004 Posts: 388 Location: New Zealand
|
Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
eccerr0r wrote: | I recall that a ~ P100 was the slowest machine that I could even try to decompress a MP3 in real time, so indeed those music files needed to be decompressed ahead of time. | Nah, a 486-class can play MP3s in realtime, with the right decoder.
I remember spending some time optimising mpg123 to get it to play 128k MP3s on my DX4/120. IIRC I got it down to about 65% CPU, with the CAMP console frontend. So a dx4/100 should also be able to do it.
Whether those 486 specific optimisations still exist is another question. I don't recall which patches I was using at the time, but these look promising. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
skellr l33t
Joined: 18 Jun 2005 Posts: 976 Location: The Village, Portmeirion
|
Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The less output generated the better on old hardware. A VT is better to use than a terminal running in a WM, and TTF/XFT fonts should be avoided. It takes too much resource to render that stuff when it could be used for something else. Look for "quiet" options and stick to corefonts if you really need to run "X" while compiling. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|