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richk449
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:23 am    Post subject: Freedom and Safety Reply with quote

I heard someone say on the radio a month or so ago that Freedom is what we want for ourselves, and Safety is what we want for the people we love. The more I think about it, the more insightful this seems to me. The example he gave is when someone puts their parents in a nursing home - nobody asks how much freedom their parents will have; they ask how safe their parents will be. Yet the parents themselves want freedom, not safety.

I was installing a car seat, and thinking about how California now requires car seats to be used basically until marriage. I am sure that car seats improve safety - so why do we stop requiring them at a certain age? The truth is that they are basically required as long as the child is under the authority of a parent. So if the parent is making the decision for the child, they choose safety. Once the child can choose for himself, they choose freedom. It's not really that simple, since the issue is what the laws say, not individual decisions, but I bet it comes back to the same essential preferences.
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually beyond a certain size (weight) the car seat does not improve safety and in fact hinders it. But that is neither here nor there. The nursing home, on the other hand, is flawed. First, if we are talking about a nursing home then we are likely talking about a person who has lost the ability to care for themselves either physically or mentally. Second, generally we would assume that the staff would be minimally invasive.

What you describe is a fairly common pathology, particularly on the let, where rights must be surrendered for the "common good" or similar. The classical liberal prefers freedom at all times unless it infringes on another person. The phrase "Your right to swing your fist stops at my nose" sums up this mind set. We see the results in kids very clearly. When parents let them make their own decisions and their own mistakes they make good choices once they leave home, usually in college. The ones who go crazy and do the really stupid stuff are the ones where the parents refuse to let them off the leash. The authoritative vs the authoritarian. The third type, the permissive, doesn't really enter into the discussion but it usually results in self centered narcissists.

I find it rather interesting that this discussion is essentially what Captain America: Civil War is about and I just finished watching it. Team Cap all the way. Trying to enforce your safety on the world invariably leads to a dictatorship.
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erm67
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
Actually beyond a certain size (weight) the car seat does not improve safety and in fact hinders it.

Fake news (old), did you read it on meme on facebook?

Is that really legal in the US?
https://vimeo.com/69593333
We'd probably be arrested for child abuse for something like that here :-)

We always used a car seat and now she pretends that everybody in car with her has the seat belts fastened :-)
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Freedom is the United States. Safety is an illusion.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's just the thing, Nanny staters want to treat adults like children.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damnit, I miss my Glock 19. I'm stuck in California for three weeks.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Freedom and Safety Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
The example he gave is when someone puts their parents in a nursing home - nobody asks how much freedom their parents will have; they ask how safe their parents will be.

People in true nursing homes shouldn't have much freedom, or they will suffer and die. People who put their parents into "assisted living" or "senior community" situations and who do not consider this are selfish assholes, but that's probably a given more often than not.

richk449 wrote:
I was installing a car seat, and thinking about how California now requires car seats to be used basically until marriage. I am sure that car seats improve safety - so why do we stop requiring them at a certain age? The truth is that they are basically required as long as the child is under the authority of a parent. So if the parent is making the decision for the child, they choose safety. Once the child can choose for himself, they choose freedom. It's not really that simple, since the issue is what the laws say, not individual decisions, but I bet it comes back to the same essential preferences.

The frontal lobe of the brain (the part responsible for good judgement) is not fully developed (myelinated, to be specific) until about 26 or so. Children should be in car seats until they are large enough for a seat belt to protect them properly, but they should not have a license to drive until they are 26. And, they especially should not be able to vote.

The Lacademonians, who had the best thought-out system of government and social structure ever, did not consider one an adult until the age of 30.


Last edited by Bones McCracker on Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Freedom and Safety Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
The frontal lobe of the brain (the part responsible for good judgement) is not fully developed (myelinated, to be specific) until about 26 or so. Children should be in car seats until they are large enough for a seat belt to protect them properly, but they should not have a license to drive until they are 26. And, they especially should not be able to vote.


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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To protect everybody else.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like a dependent personality disorder or something like that. I can't recall the specific term.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like senility or something.
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flysideways
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:22 am    Post subject: Re: Freedom and Safety Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
So if the parent is making the decision for the child, they choose safety.


In which demographic, society, or culture? You may need to check your bias.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd quote the Renaissance Man, Ben Franklin, but what's the point?

Safety is an illusion.
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richk449
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:12 am    Post subject: Re: Freedom and Safety Reply with quote

flysideways wrote:
richk449 wrote:
So if the parent is making the decision for the child, they choose safety.

In which demographic, society, or culture? You may need to check your bias.

:D
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richk449
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Freedom and Safety Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
The frontal lobe of the brain (the part responsible for good judgement) is not fully developed (myelinated, to be specific) until about 26 or so. Children should be in car seats until they are large enough for a seat belt to protect them properly, but they should not have a license to drive until they are 26. And, they especially should not be able to vote.

What is the argument that one shouldn't be able to drive until your frontal lobe has reached it's peak? Once it hits that peak, it will start to decline. Should there only be a narrow window from age 30 to 35 in which one is allowed to drive? (Actually, I would be okay with that.)

And what does any of that have to do with safety? A five point harness is always safer than a three point harness, regardless of the stage of brain development.
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Old School
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is lacking in the pre developed frontal lobe is the ability to foresee long term consequences to near term actions. That ability does not begin to diminish after reaching full development. A 34 or 70 year old has a better concept of cause and effect than a 17 year old.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
What is lacking in the pre developed frontal lobe is the ability to foresee long term consequences to near term actions. That ability does not begin to diminish after reaching full development. A 34 or 70 year old has a better concept of cause and effect than a 17 year old.


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pjp
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
A 34 or 70 year old has a better concept of cause and effect than a 17 year old.
Depends on the 70 year old. Some eof them seem completely unaware that they're actually operating a motor vehicle.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:12 am    Post subject: Re: Freedom and Safety Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
Bones McCracker wrote:
The frontal lobe of the brain (the part responsible for good judgement) is not fully developed (myelinated, to be specific) until about 26 or so. Children should be in car seats until they are large enough for a seat belt to protect them properly, but they should not have a license to drive until they are 26. And, they especially should not be able to vote.

What is the argument that one shouldn't be able to drive until your frontal lobe has reached it's peak? Once it hits that peak, it will start to decline. Should there only be a narrow window from age 30 to 35 in which one is allowed to drive? (Actually, I would be okay with that.)

And what does any of that have to do with safety? A five point harness is always safer than a three point harness, regardless of the stage of brain development.

The frontal lobe becoming fully developed does not mean the mind is at it's peak; it means it is now, for the first time, generally reliable for sound judgement. It will continue to improve in that regard for three decades. It is probably already past it's peak in other respects (ability to learn, speed) and has already been declining for years. Slightly diminished reaction time is negligible, and people can drive safely in that regard from childhood through about 80, whereasy unreliable judgement gets teens and 20-somethings, and their victims, killed by the teens of thousands every year. Young drivers cause more physical and financial harm to this country than global warming, Russian Hackers, and gun violents put together. They should only be allowed in self-driving cars with Adolescent Driver On Board programming lockout override detesticlization.
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