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patrix_neo
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

o'bogamol wrote:
patrix_neo wrote:
I just wants to air my op. on this. That police officer should be on a desktop job.
Out in the field with a potential armed POI, doing what he did, is not exactly a gold star performance.
Whom ever put him there should be shot


Training video for pjp.


' Wait, I am not stupid..."

Sometimes that one do some good comedy. Not often, this is an exception.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Your thread positioned itself as attacking police in general and the specific officer involved. That posturing made the death a secondary issue. Based on the video alone, I don't see any evidence suggesting the officer shouldn't have "walked away a free man."


Except

ws wrote:
I would think that in order to fire on someone, that a weapon should first be positively identified.


there wasn't even a hint of a weapon. there was whimpering man on his knees. There are a lot of unknowns in that video (where the people were coming from, whether they were connected to a crime... etc). But one of the few things that is obvious in that video: that guy was scared like no other person I have seen. He was literally crying and begging for his life.

pjp wrote:
Yes, it is bad that someone died when it could have been avoided. I've already described my non-expert concerns about the events which transpired, so I don't think I need to say more about that. But I will reiterate as I have mentioned many times, there needs to be more training, better training, or both.


I am in fact in full agreement. I am not suggesting that most or even many police officers are malicious. I agree with you that likely the number one problem is lack of training. Heap on an abundance of stress, lack of sleep and high pressure situations, and I think you have huge scope for a lot of shitty decisions well before you need to suspect any malice.

However, if you couple that lack of training with a very very difficult task of policing a population that at every corner is likely to be armed, you get a lot of people dead. I don't think your police are the problem. It's the entire interaction between the people and law enforcement.

richk wrote:
He reached his arm behind his back, therefore his death doesn't bother me at all.


indeed. basically, if you can't follow complex, ambiguous orders in a tense situation while being berated, that's your fault.

doctor wrote:
No it isn't. You are talking about the perception of police being out of control and shooting everyone in sight. BLM is responsible for that propaganda.


I wasn't talking about that perception. Read again. I said nothing of the kind. You seem intent on discussing this issue with a BLM supporter, of which I am not. You earlier listed a number of controversial shootings of black people as if to counter some point of mine. I have neither brought BLM ideas or perceptions into this discussion, nor do I support them. You seem to be mistaking my views for something they are not.

doctor wrote:
The US has problems that Canada or the UK does not.
Yes, I know. I am pointing that out. 1000 people dead per year by cops is one of them.

doctor wrote:
That is, as you say, a guess. But what isn't a guess is to compare the number of acid attacks and Muslim gangs raping underage girls in the UK to the United States. You have that problem, we don't.


it's more than a guess actually, given that some years no one is killed by cops here. it isn't at all a stretch to think that there have been less than 1000 people killed by cops here in a hundred years.

yes, we indeed have those problems. Two things though. 1) I fully support trying dealing with those problems and 2) I don't see what relevance they have to the current discussion.

doctor wrote:
Of course it does. But one bad apple does not speak for the bunch.


again, this isn't the only example of cops killing unarmed people.

Keep in mind, I know that of those 1000 people killed, many were in fact armed and a threat.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
However, if you couple that lack of training with a very very difficult task of policing a population that at every corner is likely to be armed, you get a lot of people dead.
I don't believe that is a conclusion which can be assumed. I've known police who preferred armed citizens. And certainly there are those who do not. But given that it is a reality, perhaps that too needs to be a part of training and perhaps selection. Those afraid of armed citizens to the degree which they may "overreact" or react poorly probably ought not be selected.

I believe I've otherwise responded to your comments in this same post, so I don't want to beat a dead horse. If there's something specific I'v missed, I'd be happy to do comment on it.

juniper wrote:
I don't think your police are the problem. It's the entire interaction between the people and law enforcement.
I agree. And where the system is a significant factor, it is unreasonable to hold police to the same standard as a citizen regarding outcome.
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richk449
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's well known that politics isn't about policy - people vote based on which groups they want to elevate or devalue.

I think this is a similar situation. People's reaction to this video is based mostly on whether they want to promote the position of law enforcement, and those groups who support law enforcement.


Slightly different point. For those people who are okay with the police officer's actions - what would you do if you were the guy in the hallway? Are you confident that if you walked around a corner into two guys with high power weapons pointed at you, shouting instructions, you would obey everything they said, and not make any mistakes? And if you did make a mistake, do you accept that you should die, because you didn't perform perfectly in that situation, which was thrust upon you without any warning?
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
It's well known that politics isn't about policy - people vote based on which groups they want to elevate or devalue.


:?
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
doctor wrote:
The US has problems that Canada or the UK does not.
Yes, I know. I am pointing that out. 1000 people dead per year by cops is one of them.
That is a symptom, not a cause. If you have ever visited the USA you know the culture is different. For example, for some reason thugs have become role models to many young people who now actively try to emulate them. For example, Trayvon Martin.

You can't say that the number of people shot is the problem without identifying why they where shot. If some idiot thinks it is a good idea to get out a gun and start shooting then I'm perfectly fine with them getting shot.
juniper wrote:
doctor wrote:
That is, as you say, a guess. But what isn't a guess is to compare the number of acid attacks and Muslim gangs raping underage girls in the UK to the United States. You have that problem, we don't.


it's more than a guess actually, given that some years no one is killed by cops here. it isn't at all a stretch to think that there have been less than 1000 people killed by cops here in a hundred years.
The UK has several advantages there. You are not trying to get 10 or so different cultures to live together or clean up a gang culture, although that looks to be changing soon.

doctor wrote:
yes, we indeed have those problems[acid attacks and Muslim gangs]. Two things though. 1) I fully support trying dealing with those problems and 2) I don't see what relevance they have to the current discussion.
The point is you have a systemic breakdown in law and order that is not shared by the USA. Further, if the UK where to adopt a more aggressive police posture that actually went after these individuals then more people would be injured at police hands.

juniper wrote:
doctor wrote:
Of course it does. But one bad apple does not speak for the bunch.


again, this isn't the only example of cops killing unarmed people.

Keep in mind, I know that of those 1000 people killed, many were in fact armed and a threat.
Again, back to the BLM propaganda. That is what you are trying to build a case on. This is one incident. One in which the officer was disciplined. He was fired. He wasn't charged because his actions in the heat of the moment appear to be in good faith. Police killing an unarmed person is very rare and always treated seriously. In most cases suspects are armed (either apparently or actually) or violent.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
richk449 wrote:
It's well known that politics isn't about policy - people vote based on which groups they want to elevate or devalue.


:?

:?:
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
Muso wrote:
richk449 wrote:
It's well known that politics isn't about policy - people vote based on which groups they want to elevate or devalue.


:?

:?:


You don't feel that certain ideological goals supersede that? The schadenfreude of watching a bunch of nanny staters cry like little bitches does feel good, but the idea that regulations get repealed is a better driver imo.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
It's well known that politics isn't about policy - people vote based on which groups they want to elevate or devalue.
Could you clarify what you mean here by policy vs groups? For example, I favor smaller government, individual responsibility, etc. I'm not trying to elevate or devalue a group.

richk449 wrote:
I think this is a similar situation. People's reaction to this video is based mostly on whether they want to promote the position of law enforcement, and those groups who support law enforcement.
I'm not certain what you mean by "promote the position of law enforcement." In hindsight, it is easy to nitpick. Reviewing these videos requires at least trying to put yourself in the situation of the officer. Why? Because that's the person "on trial" when the video is being reviewed. Did the officer act appropriately or inappropriately, etc. Did the officer have a reason to believe their life (or others) was in danger? That decision is being made in milliseconds. Expecting human beings to perform that job flawlessly is an unreasonable standard. If there is no expectation of flawless performance of the job, then that immediately necessitates a grey area where the officer must be allowed a degree of error.

richk449 wrote:
Slightly different point. For those people who are okay with the police officer's actions - what would you do if you were the guy in the hallway? Are you confident that if you walked around a corner into two guys with high power weapons pointed at you, shouting instructions, you would obey everything they said, and not make any mistakes? And if you did make a mistake, do you accept that you should die, because you didn't perform perfectly in that situation, which was thrust upon you without any warning?
I'm not okay with the officer's actions, and I did outline problems I had. But I don't believe the officer should be charged with murder.

No one who hasn't been in a "comparable" situation can credibly claim how they would respond. My guess is that any "normal" person would try to obey the commands as best they could understand them given the situation. If I were dead, it wouldn't really matter. More importantly, if it happened to someone I knew enough to care about on a personal level, I wouldn't be in a position -- at least for a while -- to evaluate the video without extreme bias. Someone who has an extreme hatred for police isn't likely to have a reasonable ability to fairly evaluate events. I'm not fond of the way policing has evolved in the US, but I respect the job and the expectations of those who try to do it.

Maybe one of the issues which needs to be addressed is the selection process. But if you place strict requirements on qualifications, be prepared to pay a lot of money to get and keep them. Are there even enough people who would qualify or be willing to do the job? Given the unreasonable expectations of performance many people seem to have of police, I wouldn't consider the job for less then a million. And if I could be expected to face murder charges for making minor mistakes -- yes, the mistakes are often minor, but the impact is not -- I wouldn't even consider taking the job.
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o'bogamol
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@aidenjt regarding tribal us v them:

I dislike Donald Trump. I don't think he is a good person (for the same reasons I dislike Bill Clinton, incidentally) But I vote straight ticket Republican because that's the difference between getting Supreme Court Justice Gorsuch or Thomas and Supreme Court Justice Ginsberg or Sotomayor. It's not about tribalism, it's about keeping the only branch of government that isn't stalemated from turning towards a policy agenda that is diametrically opposed to that which I believe is good for us. It just looks like tribalism because we are experiencing extreme partisanship within the stalemated branches of govt.

That's why countless conservatives and libertarians voted for Trump, in spite of the fact that he isn't either conservative or libertarian.

I am hopeful that we will be able to get through some of the congressional deadlock that we are experiencing, and figure out an actual fair healthcare plan that is not a partisan hack job, for example. I'm disgusted by bills that pass with only Republican or only Democrat support. I had very guarded hopes that Trump, who has some very left wing views on some issues, would have been able to be the catalyst for bipartisanship, but he's been so roundly rejected that he isn't credible at all. (The only good thing he is doing is trying to end the crisis with best Korea before my son turns 18 and is eligible for the draft. [/Selfish Dad])


Regarding the video, Weinstein is probably an awful person but he is innocent until proven guilty. This whole idea of putting people through the court of public opinion rather than actual court is something that we are doing far too often and we are ruining people's lives over it. Did the cop do something horrific? Don't know. Didn't watch the video, because I am not on a jury. I am convinced that putting video out like this and putting people like Weinstein, Franken, Conyers, Moore, et al is slander and libel. Try them in court or shut up about it. Without a trial, this cop did nothing wrong. Neither did a bank robber, until he is proved to have done wrong in court, where we do this legitimately.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

o'bogamol wrote:
I'm disgusted by bills that pass with only Republican or only Democrat support. I had very guarded hopes that Trump, who has some very left wing views on some issues, would have been able to be the catalyst for bipartisanship, but he's been so roundly rejected that he isn't credible at all.
That could only happen if both sides come to the table ready to negotiate. IMO there is no Republican candidate since Reagan for whom that would have happened. It isn't that Trump isn't at all credible, it is that both parties have zero credibility. Nevermind the jokes which are Green and Libertarian.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
richk449 wrote:
Muso wrote:
richk449 wrote:
It's well known that politics isn't about policy - people vote based on which groups they want to elevate or devalue.


:?

:?:


You don't feel that certain ideological goals supersede that? The schadenfreude of watching a bunch of nanny staters cry like little bitches does feel good, but the idea that regulations get repealed is a better driver imo.

Some people are better than others at focusing on policies. I'm not saying that everyone is just voting based on who they hate - but there is a large undercurrent in politics that is informed by what people feel should happen to other groups: policemen, CEOs, movie stars, etc.

I think that to some degree, it goes back to the tribal nature of humans - which reveals itself more strongly in some places and times than others.

You can read more about "politics isn't about policy":
http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2008/07/xxxxxxx.html
http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/07/is-ideology-abo.html
http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2017/02/politics_is_not_1.html
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

o'bogamol wrote:
@aidenjt regarding tribal us v them:

You must be thinking of me in another one of the hundred odd police shooting threads. I haven't said anything since it'd be rather redundant.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The cop should be officially reprimanded and fired. He's obviously not suited to police work.
And, he wasn't prepared to deal properly with such a situation. His supervisors, right up to executive level, should be relieved of duty or officially reprimanded.

However, the motherfucker who called the cops and reported that people in this hotel room were aiming a rifle out the room should be charged with accessory to manslaughter.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seem to have missed the reports of the riots and civil unrest after this man's unjust killing and the killer's acquittal. Are they being suppressed?

Hands up don't shoot?
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

flysideways wrote:
I seem to have missed the reports of the riots and civil unrest after this man's unjust killing and the killer's acquittal. Are they being suppressed?

Hands up don't shoot?

Your point is?
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He was just some white person. Had he been negroid, the entire remaining supply of Christmas sneakers would be gone by now.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swatted: Police Kill Innocent Man in Kansas

I highly recommend listening to the police briefing before jumping to conclusions as there doesn't appear to be enough information to make any judgements.

If the Deputy Chief's information is correct, it is another incident of someone not obeying orders and repeatedly reaching toward his waist and appearing (to the shooting officer) to bring a weapon to bear upon officers. The deceased was unarmed.

This looks like a swatting due to a dispute between two Call of Duty gamers. One of the gamers was supposed to be the target of the swatting, but he gave a different address. The deceased person is not one of the gamers and had no association with them.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Disgusted at all parties involved.

Innocent man/father/brother/son gunned down by an out-of-control LAW ENFORCEMENT prick, bad 911 dispatcher, idiot COD gamers... total tragedy.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:41 am    Post subject: LAPD: Los Angeles man arrested in connection to deadly 'swat Reply with quote

A death was bound to happen sooner or later due to this retarded prank

http://www.kwch.com/content/news/Two-critically-injured-in-W-Wichita-shooting-467049153.html

Quote:
The Wichita Police Department Friday confirms a prank call led to the deadly officer-involved shooting of a 28-year-old man in southwest Wichita.

Wichita Police Department Deputy Chief Troy Livingston says the department's thoughts and prayers are with the family of 28-year-old Andrew Finch and with the WPD officer who fatally shot him.

"Due to the actions of a prankster, we have an innocent victim," Livingston says.

Livingston says police believe this was a case of "swatting" where someone makes a false call to yield a response from a SWAT team to an address.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree the guy should face consequences, yet he never pulled a trigger. In the end, it was the cop that killed an innocent man.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swatter should be charged with Murder in the First Degree.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swatter should be charged with Murder in the First Degree.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
Swatter should be charged with Murder in the First Degree.

What about the cop?
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
Bones McCracker wrote:
Swatter should be charged with Murder in the First Degree.

What about the cop?

Come to your own conclusion (watch the video)...
https://edition.cnn.com/2017/12/11/opinions/daniel-shaver-shooting-opinion-gagliano/index.html

I would say this officer needs to be charged as well... why didn't he have him just lay face down arms out, why did he have him crawl. Sure reaching back maybe for a gun but... you know the FUCKING KID IS SHITTING HIS PANTS
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