Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
[Solved] Thinking Gentoo.......
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

 
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Gentoo Chat
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
HellBorne
n00b
n00b


Joined: 23 Nov 2017
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:32 am    Post subject: [Solved] Thinking Gentoo....... Reply with quote

Hello all,

After few years of using Arch, I moved to another distribution which is great but their repo is small at the moment. I am thinking of another move after 1 week of testing it as 'home' for two reasons:

1) Devs decide what deps install with package, and
2) Their forums are untidy (60% of the reason to leave), users do not want to use quote and code tags and mods don't seem to care (realized this after few attempts to get things done standard forum-etiquette way).

My questions are:
1. Can non-programmers run and maintain Gentoo? I am probably near intermediate.
I am afraid of dependency management, flags (which ones to enable or not), compiling times, etc.

2. Packages I must need are Steam, MegaSync, Wine, KVM/Qemu + Virtual Machine Manager, Telegram messenger, Thunderbird, Chrome/Chromium, GIMP, Scanner, etc.

3. Given everyone has super-fast processors, high bandwidth unlimited Internet connection and virtually unlimited drives like 1 TB, etc. Why Gentoo's philosophy is still relevant (apart from cult / fanboyism / l33t status, etc)?

Please don't mind my questions, I want to learn and choose a distro for at least half of next decade. For me, a distro means nothing more than "its package manager and its community" rest of the things are more or less same.

Thank you.
_________________
Be nice with all Linux users because everyone is not a programmer.


Last edited by HellBorne on Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Muso
l33t
l33t


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 686
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:53 am    Post subject: Re: Thinking Gentoo....... Reply with quote

HellBorne wrote:
Hello all,

After few years of using Arch, I moved to another distribution which is great but their repo is small at the moment. I am thinking of another move after 1 week of testing it as 'home' for two reasons:

1) Devs decide what deps install with package, and
2) Their forums are untidy (60% of the reason to leave), users do not want to use quote and code tags and mods don't seem to care (realized this after few attempts to get things done standard forum-etiquette way).


Hello.

HellBorne wrote:
My questions are:
1. Can non-programmers run and maintain Gentoo? I am probably near intermediate.
I am afraid of dependency management, flags (which ones to enable or not), compiling times, etc.


Yes. You do not need to know how to program, but you do need to have an understanding of Linux. Most USE flags are set in a rational manner so you won't need to necessarily bother with them.

HellBorne wrote:
2. Packages I must need are Steam, MegaSync, Wine, KVM/Qemu + Virtual Machine Manager, Telegram messenger, Thunderbird, Chrome/Chromium, GIMP, Scanner, etc.


Just emerge as needed.

HellBorne wrote:
3. Given everyone has super-fast processors, high bandwidth unlimited Internet connection and virtually unlimited drives like 1 TB, etc. Why Gentoo's philosophy is still relevant (apart from cult / fanboyism / l33t status, etc)?


You can build Gentoo exactly how you want. It is extremely flexible.

HellBorne wrote:
Please don't mind my questions, I want to learn and choose a distro for at least half of next decade. For me, a distro means nothing more than "its package manager and its community" rest of the things are more or less same.


Questions are always welcome. These forums are rather active. You might be surprised how many answers you will find just going through the forums.

HellBorne wrote:
Thank you.


You're welcome.
_________________
People Of Love

Kindness Evokes Kindness

Peace Emits Positive Energy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hu
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 11434

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moderators are fairly active here. I think I end up needing to fix at least one post every few days where someone omitted/misused markup, so I have a standard list of edit reasons I can copy in when I make changes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 39299
Location: 56N 3W

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:35 am    Post subject: Re: Thinking Gentoo....... Reply with quote

HellBorne wrote:
Hello all,

After few years of using Arch, I moved to another distribution which is great but their repo is small at the moment. I am thinking of another move after 1 week of testing it as 'home' for two reasons:

1) Devs decide what deps install with package, and
2) Their forums are untidy (60% of the reason to leave), users do not want to use quote and code tags and mods don't seem to care (realized this after few attempts to get things done standard forum-etiquette way).

My questions are:
1. Can non-programmers run and maintain Gentoo? I am probably near intermediate.
I am afraid of dependency management, flags (which ones to enable or not), compiling times, etc.


Welcome to Gentoo. Gentoo is a toolkit you use to make your very own distro. Its the package manager (portage) and the gentoo ebuild repository.
Everything else is upstream. Keep that in mind it matters later.

I'm not a programmer and I manage to run Gentoo. You don't need to be a programmer but it helps if you know what you want. You don't need te get it right first time because gentoo can change to your needs. You don't do the dependency management. Gentoo does. To help you get started, Gentoo provides a set of profiles. You choose one, then fine tune it.
It helps if you choose the 'right' one. This comes back to knowing what you want.

HellBorne wrote:
2. Packages I must need are Steam, MegaSync, Wine, KVM/Qemu + Virtual Machine Manager, Telegram messenger, Thunderbird, Chrome/Chromium, GIMP, Scanner, etc.

I don't know MegaSync and Telegram messenger but the rest are there.

HellBorne wrote:
3. Given everyone has super-fast processors, high bandwidth unlimited Internet connection and virtually unlimited drives like 1 TB, etc. Why Gentoo's philosophy is still relevant (apart from cult / fanboyism / l33t status, etc)?

You make your distro your way. Gentoo puts you in control. Gentoo gives you two things
a) the packages you ask for
b) the packages required by the packages you ask for.
The converse is often true. If you didn't ask for a package, it won't be installed, unless b) applies.
Any cruft on your system is the way you set it up, not the way a binary distro chose to set it up for you.

HellBorne wrote:
Please don't mind my questions, I want to learn and choose a distro for at least half of next decade. For me, a distro means nothing more than "its package manager and its community" rest of the things are more or less same..


Gentoo is good for learning and Gentoo is a package manager and "recipe" repository.
The rest is yours.

If you have an existing install, make yourself a Virtual Machine, boot SystemRescueCD, that's Gentoo and use it to install Gentoo.
You get to dip a toe in the water. You will also be able to move a large part of a VM install to the bare metal later if you want to.
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HellBorne
n00b
n00b


Joined: 23 Nov 2017
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you all for time and sharing thoughts.

Quote:

MegaSync (cloud storage with encryption, closest famous alternative "Dropbox")
Telegram (messenger app, closest alternative "Whatsapp").


I looked up Gentoo packages page, these two are not there but these can be built. I'll probably give Gentoo a try first in VM and then probably on my daily use PC.
_________________
Be nice with all Linux users because everyone is not a programmer.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
xaviermiller
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 23 Jul 2004
Posts: 7316
Location: ~Brussels - Belgique

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

You have them in overlays:
http://gpo.zugaina.org/net-misc/megasync
http://gpo.zugaina.org/net-im/telegram or http://gpo.zugaina.org/net-im/telegram-bin
_________________
Kind regards,
Xavier Miller
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HellBorne
n00b
n00b


Joined: 23 Nov 2017
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xaviermiller wrote:
You have them in overlays


Thank you. Just to confirm my understanding, are overlays an extension of Gentoo's official ebuild repos?
_________________
Be nice with all Linux users because everyone is not a programmer.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
xaviermiller
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 23 Jul 2004
Posts: 7316
Location: ~Brussels - Belgique

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes
Gentoo Wiki wrote:
An ebuild repository, colloquially known as an overlay, is a structure of directories and files used to add and extend packages for a Gentoo-based system's package manager. Ebuild repositories can contain ebuilds conforming to one or more Ebuild APIs.
Source
_________________
Kind regards,
Xavier Miller


Last edited by xaviermiller on Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
krinn
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 5971

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Thinking Gentoo....... Reply with quote

HellBorne wrote:
1) Devs decide what deps install with package, and
2) Their forums are untidy (60% of the reason to leave), users do not want to use quote and code tags and mods don't seem to care (realized this after few attempts to get things done standard forum-etiquette way).

Doesn't really look like good arguments against it, if it's a binary distro, the deps must be fix to "something", you cannot have flexibility using binaries.
Same for their forums, if they don't have such a rule to use code/tag or whatever, i don't see why their mods need to care if someone doesn't use them.

HellBorne wrote:
I am afraid of dependency management, flags (which ones to enable or not), compiling times, etc.

If you want to define what dependencies you want, you use source base distro, which mean compiling and defining those dependencies yourself.
In the best world, you will get advantages of both binary and source distro, but it's not possible for binary distro, nor it's possible for source distro.

HellBorne wrote:
3. Given everyone has super-fast processors, high bandwidth unlimited Internet connection and virtually unlimited drives like 1 TB, etc. Why Gentoo's philosophy is still relevant (apart from cult / fanboyism / l33t status, etc)?

You don't know what people will do with their distro, you assume your needs are needs of everyone ; i have even saw a guy using gentoo in a guitar, and all you said doesn't match his needs (no super fast cpu, limited space, and no internet connection).
The fanbiyism, cult and l33t status is a claim from non gentoo users. Sorry, you will certainly be able to install gentoo like everyone, and once finish, you might have learn something, but you won't be l33t ; it's a status reserved for exherbo users.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
P.Kosunen
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 21 Nov 2005
Posts: 177
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://packages.gentoo.org/packages/net-im/telegram-desktop-bin

Telegram client is in Gentoo repository.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HellBorne
n00b
n00b


Joined: 23 Nov 2017
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Thinking Gentoo....... Reply with quote

Thanks @P.Kosunen for telegram and @krinn for commenting.

I don't want to bash-that-distro by any means -- it has its own merits but...

Quote:
if it's a binary distro, the deps must be fix to "something", you cannot have flexibility using binaries.

Yes and no. Arch still gives flexibility to avoid optional deps -- in the one I am talking about, it is a simple no, everything gets installed.

Quote:
if they don't have such a rule to use code/tag or whatever, i don't see why their mods need to care if someone doesn't use them.

They do have rules, I tried to flag a few posts to be fixed and when nothing happened spoke to admin even offered my time to fix posts for minor things like using quote / code tags, etc. but they wan't to keep community super-friendly so they don't see things the way I am talking about.

Quote:
... you will certainly be able to install gentoo like everyone, and once finish, you might have learn something


I think I've got my hindsight to get started with Gentoo so will be marking thread solved and I will probably start Gentoo as a VM or on a spare partition.

Thanks.
_________________
Be nice with all Linux users because everyone is not a programmer.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tuggbuss
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 20 Mar 2017
Posts: 144

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, welcome to the @world of Gentoo.

I use Arch Linux since a couple of years as well as Gentoo since a little less than that, but if you are mentioning https://bbs.archlinux.org there are in fact strict rules about code- and quote tags, and all the mods and admin notifies every user that doesn't/or forgets to use them. They do not edit original post regarding this thou, leaving that for the topic starter to edit. Sometimes the user(s) doesn't listen, and if repeats a bunch of times, they might get temp ban, and perhaps permanent ban from the forum in the long run.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hu
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 11434

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HellBorne wrote:
Thank you. Just to confirm my understanding, are overlays an extension of Gentoo's official ebuild repos?
That depends on how you interpret the question. ;) An overlay is built on the same principles as the main ebuild repository and used through the same tools. However, overlays can be owned and maintained by anyone. Gentoo infrastructure hosts some of the popular overlays and links to them through the downloadable layman configuration files, but you can also make your own overlay or find an overlay managed by users unaffiliated with the Gentoo project. You should only use an overlay maintained by people you trust. It's probably safe to use overlays hosted on Gentoo infrastructure, but if you find an overlay somewhere else, you should evaluate its maintainers before using it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
unheatedgarage
n00b
n00b


Joined: 19 Sep 2016
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey!

Well, to be honest, since you’re already running Arch, you already know how to install Gentoo. At least, in my experience, the processes were virtually identical. In fact, it was only after I failed at installing Gentoo, that I went to Arch and was successful at building your system. I then took those lessons and applied them here, and the rest is history.

Gentoo’s handbook is impressive, but I find myself more-than-occasionally going to Arch’s handbook too—the two compliment each other.

You might find Portage to be quite cumbersome compared to pacman. It can be complicated for an uninitiated noob like me, but thanks to the great documentation and fantastic help I’ve found here on the forums, I’ve been able to level-up my skills to the point where I feel like a “lower-level intermediate” after a little over a year of using it.

One thing Gentoo has taught me is humility. Of all the times my system has broken, I can’t really think of an instance where it was Gentoo’s fault. 99.9% of the time it’s been operator error.

I’ve said it before, but here we go again: there’s a quiet elegance to Portage—it’s USE flag system enables you to create a system to your exact demands (no matter how absurd they might be)! Portage also enables you to create your own build environments for multiple compilers, and the tutorials are all there. I'm currently rebuilding my system with as much Clang -lto as possible, while rolling back to the Stable Branch because I grew tired of building lots of libraries and whatnot on the Testing Branch.

Sky's the limit here, really.

You want a bleeding edge, finely honed ricer? Go for it. Have fun putting Humpty-Dumpty back together again if it breaks though! That’s where the learning comes in.

You happy rolling stable branch and running an update every few weeks? You’re in good hands there too.

Gentoo doesn’t seem l33t to me. If anything, I’ve found the community around here to be more willing and helpful than most others. Maybe it's the tinkering and experimentation that's inherent in the system, but you'll almost always find someone (either here, or on the mailing lists, or IRC) who've already tried whatever it is you're doing/experienced the same problem you're having, and are happy to tell you their tale of woe/give you some pointers in the right direction.

If you decide to jump in, welcome to the fray!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HellBorne
n00b
n00b


Joined: 23 Nov 2017
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks @unheatedgarage @Hu @tuggbuss.
_________________
Be nice with all Linux users because everyone is not a programmer.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Gentoo Chat All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum