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pjp
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
Unfortunately google returns me only copper switches, since well anything beyond blindly switching packets at high speed between ports doesn't belong to a switch ;-)
10GbE copper was what I wanted. Not worth the money for fibre.

I don't know if it belongs to a switch, but that's where the industry has taken it, or at least morphed the term switch.

Here's a not Cisco and not Juniper option, price of course way too high for my playing around.
D-Link 10-Port 10-Gigabit Ethernet Smart Managed Switch

erm67 wrote:
It very likely that routing and filtering packets requires a router.... I don't think 10Gb allinone exists but maybe you can find a copper Gbit switch with a 10Gb 'uplink' port (or more than one), but it's very likely that they will only switch packets, forget about iptablnig@10Gb current CPU are not fast enough.

https://www.amazon.com/Alcatel-Lucent-OS6850-48X-US-Omniswitch-Stackable-Ethernet/dp/B003JEWKBQ/ref=sr_1_36?ie=UTF8&qid=1507685768&sr=8-36&keywords=10gb+uplink
or this one:
https://www.amazon.com/ZyXEL-24-Port-Gigabit-Redundant-XGS3700-24/dp/B00EPGHIVY/ref=sr_1_43?ie=UTF8&qid=1507685768&sr=8-43&keywords=10gb+uplink

Affordable, and I 'think' it's possible to configure them with a cli, but they probably just switch packets at layer 2 i.e ARP, well actually apparently they have some layer 3 routing feature but probably very limited.

swiching the tcp/ip protocol requires that all ports connected to the same vlan/subnet have the same speed, so it very likely that the 10Gb ports will have to go in a separate vlan/subnet.
I can't imagine there are any 10GbE allinone, which is fine. And I'll have to do more research to learn the capabilities of any given switch choice to determine if a router is needed, and if so, how to best pair them (capabilities, etc.)

erm67 wrote:
Uplink ports are used to connect switches to each other, but can also be used for servers or computers.
I knew about switch connectivity, but wasn't certain about server connectivity, so that's good to know. But with only two ports, probably not worth the cost. Maybe bonded 1Gb ports would suffice.

Thanks for the feedback.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you refer to 10 GbE, are you talking about conventional twisted pair and RJ-45? Or perhaps something like twinax?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

10GbE copper. I mentioned it, but not consistently.

Well, I had not heard of twinax being referred to as copper, though I suppose it is. Neither had I heard of it doing 10GbE.

So technically I was thinking of twisted-pair, but I'm not stuck on that. For client connectivity, I wonder if twisted-pair would be better simply for support.

EDIT: Interesting. Just did a quick read with power consumption being its primary advantage. I've used InfiniBand, but had no idea it was similar to twinax.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
[I knew about switch connectivity, but wasn't certain about server connectivity, so that's good to know. But with only two ports, probably not worth the cost. Maybe bonded 1Gb ports would suffice.

Thanks for the feedback.


10Gb is becoming attractive but recently the new 2Gb and 5Gb standard were approved that should be compatible with Gb infrastructure and probably intended to be used on terminal (computer, latops) ....
For the moment, for me bonded Gb is probably enough since basically only my laptop eth, the NAS and the home server connect to the switch directly, everything else is wireless and connects to the switch through the router internal port ... a dual/quad Gbit would be great for my small lan, one port for iscsi and the other for multimedia :-)
I don't even know if there are already laptops with 10Gb cards ..... and I'd buy first a nas with 10/5/2 Gb card and than improve the physical layer. A lot of people have problem getting more than 1.5Gbit out of commercial rotational disks exp if random access. Maybe once terabyte SSD are availabe it will be worth.

dual gigabit nas aren't so expensive (300-500$) , combined with a good Gbit managed 8 port switch (50-100$) that supports jumbo frames, might be enough depending on the connectivity of your desktop, the wi-fi AP and the router will connect to the switich through a Gbit port like in the builtin switch of most allinone.

I totally supprt the idea of buying a separate switch for copper, the builtin switch of most allinone is usually limited, even if LEDE might turn them into managed switch.


BTW I am desperately trying to install Solaris 7 to my Sparstation 4 but the CD is gone to heaven so I am using my lede router to boot the Solaris miniroot over the network, I was eventually able to boot but the installation stops with the message that no disks were found .... I did even mount the original 1080 MB Conner HD but even that could not be found ..... did a set-defaults on openbios already but nothing. Solaris 8 installed on the disk boots and works perfectly, but when I boot from the network I cannot see any scsi disks ....
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want 10GBASE-T, go straight to Cat-6A and I would say to use shielded cable. The only paper I could find that talked about the viability of UTP in various environments was a little over my price range. However, Siemens did release a paper discussing the effectiveness of foil shielding in various configurations. Even if you do not (for whatever reason) ground your shielding, it will still be effective in the frequency range that 10GBASE-T operates in.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
10Gb is becoming attractive but recently the new 2Gb and 5Gb standard were approved that should be compatible with Gb infrastructure and probably intended to be used on terminal (computer, latops) ....
For the moment, for me bonded Gb is probably enough since basically only my laptop eth, the NAS and the home server connect to the switch directly, everything else is wireless and connects to the switch through the router internal port ... a dual/quad Gbit would be great for my small lan, one port for iscsi and the other for multimedia :-)
I don't even know if there are already laptops with 10Gb cards ..... and I'd buy first a nas with 10/5/2 Gb card and than improve the physical layer. A lot of people have problem getting more than 1.5Gbit out of commercial rotational disks exp if random access. Maybe once terabyte SSD are availabe it will be worth.
Well I certainly don't need it. I was just mainly looking to see if it was approachable. At this point, I'm leaning toward no. But I was thinking of VM server connected to the NAS via 10Gb with all of the VMs on the NAS, and the VM server only containing the host OS. But as a toy, the cost still seems too high. Especially since bonding is almost certainly sufficient.

erm67 wrote:
dual gigabit nas aren't so expensive (300-500$) , combined with a good Gbit managed 8 port switch (50-100$) that supports jumbo frames, might be enough depending on the connectivity of your desktop, the wi-fi AP and the router will connect to the switich through a Gbit port like in the builtin switch of most allinone.

I totally supprt the idea of buying a separate switch for copper, the builtin switch of most allinone is usually limited, even if LEDE might turn them into managed switch.
I'm now thinking a router and two switches. One switch for wireless and other stuff, and eventually a second switch for servers. Segmenting the servers allows them to communicate without going through the router. Although that doesn't address A/V streaming and non-A/V wireless usage, which is likely to be the main trouble area. Fortunately I don't need it all at once, its just nice to have the option of expansion rather than complete replacement.


erm67 wrote:
BTW I am desperately trying to install Solaris 7 to my Sparstation 4 but the CD is gone to heaven so I am using my lede router to boot the Solaris miniroot over the network, I was eventually able to boot but the installation stops with the message that no disks were found .... I did even mount the original 1080 MB Conner HD but even that could not be found ..... did a set-defaults on openbios already but nothing. Solaris 8 installed on the disk boots and works perfectly, but when I boot from the network I cannot see any scsi disks ....
I seem to recall some of those problems being system dependent. probe-scsi-all comes to mind, but there was also a time when support had to offer a more involved solution.

One of my projects is to collect all of my data into a single location and filter it. I may have those notes, but I won't find them anytime soon.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
If you want 10GBASE-T, go straight to Cat-6A and I would say to use shielded cable. The only paper I could find that talked about the viability of UTP in various environments was a little over my price range. However, Siemens did release a paper discussing the effectiveness of foil shielding in various configurations. Even if you do not (for whatever reason) ground your shielding, it will still be effective in the frequency range that 10GBASE-T operates in.
A quick search last night didn't turn up much in the way of options for twinax PCIe cards, and the ones I did find were $400+. So that isn't particularly viable.

I wasn't finding any 10Gb network gear that was close enough to "reasonable," so I can't imagine that will happen, at least for a while. If I find anything while looking for other parts, maybe. But I'd probably question the quality if the cost seemed OK.

Most of my cable is old, so probably only CAT-5. I may have some patch cables of higher quality, but will have to check. I doubt short runs are expensive, so I may just go with CAT-7.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're leaving an Ethernet standard by going with Cat-7. Cat-6A and 10GBASE-T were designed together and for each other.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grounding seems to be a possible issue, and some of 7's benefits are only available with a TERA connector, so I'll stick with 6A

Interesting that 8 is "intended only for data centers," Class II will also have TERA as an option.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Grounding seems to be a possible issue, and some of 7's benefits are only available with a TERA connector, so I'll stick with 6A

Interesting that 8 is "intended only for data centers," Class II will also have TERA as an option.

Cat-8 is only intended for data centers because it's paired with 40GBASE-T, but only for a maximum of 30 meters.

And I just grounded my Cat-6A to the power company.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, that's a cost issue more than an intention. Poorly worded I guess.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see how a 30 meter limit is of much use outside of a data center.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the same thing that makes it useful in a data center?

In my perfect world, I 'd have all of my non-mobile gear in mobile rack(s). A less protected option is more viable. That would cover comparable uses. And with basement, crawlspace, or attic access, it could cover a lot of runs in a home.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I took the miniaturization way, a very small NAS sized for 2.5" disks providing dlna, NFS and iscsi, a fanless android tv repurposed as home server (emby + nextcloud runs perfectly), a small 4 ports GBe switch (too small get an 8 port one and use bonded Gbit ports), and the modem that also acts as a wi-fi AP.. There's no need for a rack since they are very small and look good under the TV. Almost unaubible, and I live in the countryside.
I still have ftp cables running under the pavement and shielded sockets in the walls, but only to connect my laptop and it has shielded sockets, like the switch. If you plan to use FTP cables buy a switch with shielded sockets :-) and check if your equiment has shielded sockets. It helps, there's a mythbuster websites that debunks most urban mithology about shielded cabled and show it really helps getting a clean signal also inside the house, well I think urban myth==fake news today.

https://www.bicsi.org/pdf/conferences/winter/2009/presentations/Mythbusting%20Takes%20on%20Shielded%20Cabling%20-%20Herb%20Congdon%20and%20Brian%20Davis.pdf

Probably everything would fit into cabinet inside the wall like that of wswartzendruber or even a smaller one, only few eth cables and the wifi antennas getting out of it, that would be perfect. My next project probably :-)
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good info about shielded cable. The main problem for me there would be this part: Experienced Technicians.

I _can_ make cables, but I'm neither fast nor good at it. And with tighter twists, who knows how much "damage" I'd do to the signal due to untwisting too much. I'd have to make pre-made lengths work in most cases. (Though I've not seen one of their "install tools," so maybe that would solve my issues with that.


I too prefer smaller, just for space consumption, such as the 2.5" drives. And low power is preferable (the ARM revolution is long overdue!). In general, I've had issues for which I've not been able to find a good solution.

First, small "personal" devices tend to be loose, often with no good way to organize them (such as a rack). Enclosures may work as you suggested, but are likely to not fit well or require a lot of customization. And no standard -- that's the real problem. Kind of a pain.

Second, the size of PC components with monstrous cooling fans that would probably each consume 4U if not 5U rack space. I haven't yet come up with a good alternative. Having two side by side in a single 4/5U space would work, but I don't think that exists. And would probably be expensive.

And third, keeping everything organized well with smaller components means less room to work. This is somewhat a choice based on solution, but it is still a consideration. Related to this is the ease of access with rails in a rack. Probably my two most annoying components are my 4 or 5 port wifi router with all ports used. And my ISP's vertically standing router which is too light to remain vertically stable with one cable attached (I lay it on its side, sides which are slightly concave, so it doesn't even do that well).

While on the subject, the industry seems to be moving exclusively toward idiotically shaped devices which don't stack at all. I can't imagine trying to put most of those in an enclosure with other stuff. I'd get it if they were the "top" device which could stack with other stuff.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Based on the myth busting slides, it looks like the real advantage to grounding shielded cable is that it will usually ground whatever device is connected that may not be otherwise grounded.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Good info about shielded cable. The main problem for me there would be this part: Experienced Technicians.

I _can_ make cables, but I'm neither fast nor good at it. And with tighter twists, who knows how much "damage" I'd do to the signal due to untwisting too much. I'd have to make pre-made lengths work in most cases. (Though I've not seen one of their "install tools," so maybe that would solve my issues with that.


I used this BTicino toolless cat 6 STP connector:
https://bticino.assetbank-server.com/bticino/action/viewAsset?id=24408&index=0&total=1&view=viewSearchItem#
sorry the documentation is only in italian, but the pictures are self-explanatory, it was a bit expensive like 20$ each but it is extremely simple to set up a good network following the instructions and no tool is required. Cut the cable, choose if you want an EIA568A or a EIA568B cabling and follow the same color codes in all sockets, close the cap and viola in 2 minutes the network is ready. Really idiot proof. I buy pre-made patch cables to connect devices. I am pretty sure something like that exists in the US as well, you know so dumb ecuadorian electrician can set up working networks, they pay more the connector but save on wages :-)
The non shielded connector costs 15$, you won't save a lot of money with a non shielded cabling anyway. I think I choose EIA568A, straight, actually it's just the same since GBe automatically detects the connection.
pjp wrote:

I too prefer smaller, just for space consumption, such as the 2.5" drives. And low power is preferable (the ARM revolution is long overdue!). In general, I've had issues for which I've not been able to find a good solution.

First, small "personal" devices tend to be loose, often with no good way to organize them (such as a rack). Enclosures may work as you suggested, but are likely to not fit well or require a lot of customization. And no standard -- that's the real problem. Kind of a pain.

Second, the size of PC components with monstrous cooling fans that would probably each consume 4U if not 5U rack space. I haven't yet come up with a good alternative. Having two side by side in a single 4/5U space would work, but I don't think that exists. And would probably be expensive.

And third, keeping everything organized well with smaller components means less room to work. This is somewhat a choice based on solution, but it is still a consideration. Related to this is the ease of access with rails in a rack. Probably my two most annoying components are my 4 or 5 port wifi router with all ports used. And my ISP's vertically standing router which is too light to remain vertically stable with one cable attached (I lay it on its side, sides which are slightly concave, so it doesn't even do that well).

While on the subject, the industry seems to be moving exclusively toward idiotically shaped devices which don't stack at all. I can't imagine trying to put most of those in an enclosure with other stuff. I'd get it if they were the "top" device which could stack with other stuff.

Well there aren't so many thing in a home network, just put them in a closet and close the door.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

:lol:

No readily available space, but a good idea for a future home. Closets also make access more difficult, which encourages the use of the mobile rack idea.

I'll definitely look for one of these new tools. I think the last time I made a cable was in ~2005.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
:lol:

No readily available space, but a good idea for a future home. Closets also make access more difficult, which encourages the use of the mobile rack idea.

I'll definitely look for one of these new tools. I think the last time I made a cable was in ~2005.

Strange. I never need to mess with my networking hardware anymore.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just found a document that claims that it best to use the EIA568B standard since experiments show that there are less crosstalk interferences .... I should have searched before choosing EIA568A :-)
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=toolless+rj45+socket
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Strange. I never need to mess with my networking hardware anymore.
Why is that strange? I don't have the option to do what you did.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe you dill-wads haven't heard about 802.11ac? Hello? McFly?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
Maybe you dill-wads haven't heard about 802.11ac? Hello? McFly?

Why would I waste time with inferiority?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
Maybe you dill-wads haven't heard about 802.11ac? Hello? McFly?
Cool, what's that? How do you connect to it and it to the internet? Is it powered by and connected via ambient backscatter?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll put it this way: unnecessarily making holes in walls all over your house has what an economist would call a high propensity for future regret.
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