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cokey
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Nissan Leaf is the world's biggest selling electric car and it gets 138 miles in ideal conditions. The newest Teslas get between 200 and 245 miles. The range of electric cars is pretty atrocious at the moment

Have a look: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_electric_cars_currently_available
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokey wrote:
The range is still pretty bad tbh, they're not in the 450 mile mark
It isn't great, but it isn't bad. I've never owned a vehicle with a range of >400m (just under 400 was my max).

200 is probably around the minimum for viability in the US. That gets most reasonable round trip commutes with some additional driving before needing to recharge. For long distance driving, it just depends on the recharging network. At that point though, you're interested in the technology more than the minor inconvenience.


The Leaf is for those committed to the cause. People living close to work would be able to use those, but personally, I wouldn't want one.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
cokey wrote:
The range is still pretty bad tbh, they're not in the 450 mile mark
It isn't great, but it isn't bad. I've never owned a vehicle with a range of >400m (just under 400 was my max).

200 is probably around the minimum for viability in the US. That gets most reasonable round trip commutes with some additional driving before needing to recharge. For long distance driving, it just depends on the recharging network. At that point though, you're interested in the technology more than the minor inconvenience.


The Leaf is for those committed to the cause. People living close to work would be able to use those, but personally, I wouldn't want one.
The only ones that get near 200 are the Teslas. I'd be interested to know if you pay a premium for the extra range.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's trending upward rapidly:
  • Chevy Bolt: 238 miles.
  • 2018 Nissan Leaf (to be released late this year): 200+ miles promised.
  • Latest Tesla (Model S P100D): 315 miles.
  • Earliest Tesla (Roadster): 245 miles. But Tesla is offering a battery upgrade that reaches 400 miles, at a price.
I'd say that right now you do pay a premium for extra range on the high end. Tesla has offered four different sizes of batteries in the Model S: 65, 85, 90, and 100 KWh. Each costs incrementally more.

- John
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Last edited by John R. Graham on Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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cokey
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
It's trending upward rapidly:
  • Chevy Bolt: 238 miles.
  • 2018 Nissan Leaf (to be released late this year): 200+ miles promised.
  • Latest Tesla (Model S P100D): 315 miles.
  • Earliest Tesla (Roadster): 245 miles. But Tesla is offering a battery upgrade that reaches 400 miles, at a price.
- John
It certainly is.

I still wonder about the environmental impact between different cars. Is there a rating?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not a formal one that I know of. For instance, the US EPA doesn't measure or rate pre-sale environmental impact by make & model. It would be interesting to see such information.

- John
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokey wrote:
The only ones that get near 200 are the Teslas. I'd be interested to know if you pay a premium for the extra range.
I gave them a cursory review of Model S pricing last year, and from what I could tell, performance and range were the two biggest differentiating factors. I don't recall specifics.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
cokey wrote:
The only ones that get near 200 are the Teslas. I'd be interested to know if you pay a premium for the extra range.
I gave them a cursory review of Model S pricing last year, and from what I could tell, performance and range were the two biggest differentiating factors. I don't recall specifics.
Is there anything you can remember about the environmental impact of creating the cars themselves? Of course imported and semi-imported cars will be worse.

There needs to be a metric by the industry for that. How far away from the country the car was made, what percentage is recycled and how many rare earth elements are used in construction etc
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokey wrote:
Is there anything you can remember about the environmental impact of creating the cars themselves? Of course imported and semi-imported cars will be worse.

There needs to be a metric by the industry for that. How far away from the country the car was made, what percentage is recycled and how many rare earth elements are used in construction etc
Back during the Prius hype it was asserted that building new cars eliminated any environmental benefit of buying a hybrid. Of course, that doesn't apply if you were already going to buy a new vehicle, or your purpose for buying was to help shift the industry. At some point, the transition would have to happen, regardless an individual's motivation.

Then there's the problem of extra fossil fuel consumption by those having to get around hyper-milers... that probably negates any benefit at least by a factor of two.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just thought I'd mention some of the attributes of the Leaf, pro and con. Many of these are applicable to any electric car.

Things I like:
  • "Fuel" costs per mile are about half of what I pay for my 50 mpg Prius. EPA calculates something they call MPGe (Equivalent Miles Per Gallon) which is based on the cost of electricity and cost of gas and how good the mileage of a gas car would have to be to achieve equivalent cost. At current gas prices in the US, the Leaf is about 100 MPGe.
  • No oil changes, no brake changes, no tune ups. About the only service items you buy are tires, cabin air filter, and wiper blades.
  • Cabin heating and cooling is handled with a heat pump. In the dead of winter, the vents start blowing hot air within seconds.
  • Telematics. From an app on my phone, while I'm getting dressed in the morning (or finishing up at work), I can command the car to pre-condition the cabin. This can be done while the car is on charge so that you drive away with a full battery, not having used up any of it running the heat pump.
  • The "throttle" response is instantaneous. Steering is responsive. Batteries are slung under the floorboard, which contributes to a quite low CG. All in all it's fun to drive.
  • 107hp electric motor is wholly adequate and, because of the relationship between speed and power, it's surprisingly quick off the mark. At speed, it's merely adequate, but it's fun to floorboard it.
  • Not visiting gas stations (or many en-route charging stations either). Most charging is done at home (overnight) or at work.
Things I don't like:
  • Range. It's definitely a commuter car at present. Plus, as power needed is proportional to the cube of speed, the range drops dramatically at freeway speeds.
  • Charging time. Only occasionally, though. A lot of people don't get the concept of destination charging. It's a pain when you have to charge en route, though. If I run to the airport, I have to spend 15 minutes on a 50kw DC fast charger in downtown Atlanta to get home.
Both of these things are getting better in the very next generation. Teslas already charge at 120kw on their "super charger" network and the generic DC quick chargers are going to be upgraded to 100kw.

Electric car terminology has an interesting way to describe a charging station: miles per hour. As in how many miles of range can I get per hour of charging? Here's how they stack up:
  • 340mph: Tesla Super Charger.
  • 120mph: Nissan Leaf on a CHAdeMO DC fast charger.
  • 26mph: Nissan leaf on a 6kw destination charger.
All in all, I've found the Leaf to be not too onerous in the worst case and a lot of fun in the best case.

- John
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
EPA calculates something they call MPGe (Equivalent Miles Per Gallon) which is based on the cost of electricity and cost of gas and how good the mileage of a gas car would have to be to achieve equivalent cost.

Pardon me while I take a small rant-ish detour:

What is it with the govt types and their constant inventing of obfuscatory units to measure things in? Why?? The price of electricity varies *widely* across the country. And so does the price of gas. Why not use the actual units that matter, those being meters per joule or miles per KWh. Or better yet, their reciprocals: joules per meter or the related KWh per mile or metric equivalent. Then one can easily calculate what the cost will be based on how far they drive and the local cost of electricity, no obscure guesswork necessary.

As it stands, if the cost of gas were to go up, does that mean an electric car's "mileage" also goes up? It should, since the equivalent mileage of the gas car being compared against would have to go up to maintain the same price per distance. So here we have a measure of efficiency where the price of a fuel a car doesn't use, affects its efficiency rating. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Leave it to the govt bureaucrats to come up with ever more "creative" levels of idiocy.

Reminds me of the "SEER" air-conditioning efficiency number. That one I think is something like BTUs/hour per kilowatt or some nonsense like that. If you work thru the units it reduces to a pure ratio: some number of joules of heat pumped per joule of energy input. So why not list that? Why make it so complicated?</rant>

Quote:
[*]Cabin heating and cooling is handled with a heat pump. In the dead of winter, the vents start blowing hot air within seconds.

Is it actually a heat-pump for the heating? A friend has a Leaf, and he says his uses a resistive heater. I don't know what model year but he had it for a while. Did they change it at some point? I also heard (but haven't verified), that the Tesla uses resistive heat. Anyone know whether this is true?

Quote:
Plus, as power needed is proportional to the cube of speed, the range drops dramatically at freeway speeds.

But you're also going faster so you can coast longer when it does run out ;)

Quote:
All in all, I've found the Leaf to be not too onerous in the worst case and a lot of fun in the best case.

Thanks for the detailed list, good to hear it from someone who has one.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not an invalid rant at all. In more sensible units, I average:
  • 4.1mi/kWh on my surface street commute in winter and summer. That's about 1.8mm/J, by the way.
  • 4.6mi/kWh in spring and fall.
  • 3.1mi/kWh on mostly freeway routes.
The car measures these for me. It's also configurable to display MKS units; pardon my upbringing. :wink:

I do sympathize with the EPA on one front. It's dismaying to me how little mathematics the average human being is comfortable with. Their reasoning was probably that they needed to produce a unit that seemed familiar, that could be compared merely in magnitude.

It actually is a heat pump in mine. It was introduced in the 2013 model year in some trims and is now standard, I believe. Before, it was resistive.

Correction: The basic S trim Leaf still has resistive heat even today; the mid-range SV and high-end SL trims have the heat pump.

- John
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cokey
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What would a better way of expressing it be? Something for the most stupid in society
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miles (or kilometers) per kilowatt-hour probably comes closest. It's a simple ratio of two familiar units, with the same structure as miles per gallon (unit of distance / unit of consumable).

- John
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd need at least a 150km (around 94 miles) range for my car.
Thinking of it... It doesn't sound that impossible. I would really like to drive on electric car.

So anyone with more knowledge: What's the price range on ~100mile range eCars?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the 2016 model year, the mid-range and high-end trim Nissan Leaf has a 30kWh battery, EPA rated at 107mi range. It's standard on all trims in 2017. In practice, I think your 94mi would be easily achievable with the 30kWh battery. Is the Leaf sold where you live? Are there any incentives? Full retail on the basic trim 2017 Leaf is $31,545 before incentives in the US.

- John
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Air Products wrote:
Hydrogen burns with a very pale blue to almost invisible flame, therefore injury may result from unknowingly walking into a hydrogen fire.


I'm a fan of biobutanol for gasoline burning engines or biodiesel for the louder crowd. I also prefer the idea of an electricity producing extender like the Volt. Battery if you've got it, but not walking when the battery runs out. It can be a safety issue.

I'm also curious, which of you other than John have spent your own money on a hybrid or electric vehicle?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/245901-100-mile-evs-may-need-automakers-say

Quote:
Steve Center, VP for environmental business development for Honda in the US, told Automotive News, “These people want a battery car and they know what they do and where they go. They’re very rational and they don’t need to lug around or charge up a 300-mile-range battery because that costs them electricity.” Honda has experience selling small EVs, to wit the Honda Fit EV that at 160 inches is almost three feet shorter than the Clarity and Accord. Honda sold only 1,100 of the Fit EVs. Obviously, one could argue there’s room for something in between, such as an EV version of the Honda Civic (367,000 sold last year) or CR-V compact crossover (357,000 sold last year).


range anxiety exists because the infrastructure does exist. Equally if electric recharge ends up being anything like petrol fillup... motorway prices are ridiculously more expensive THUS you fillup for the majority of the trip
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
In practice, I think your 94mi would be easily achievable with the 30kWh battery. Is the Leaf sold where you live? Are there any incentives?
Opel ampera (Chevy Volta) and Nissan Leafs are sold here.
Incentives? Here? Hah! The current government in power in here does not care about electric cars. At the moment Electric cars have same yearly tax as diesel cars here. Unless the law has changed... I haven't bothered to check. I just get pissed to rad all the rules and regulations.
Anyway. A smallish electric car does not have too high yearly tax.

Anyway. I'll start looking at +30kWh cars...
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Anyone Else Driving an Electric Car? Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
Really enjoying my Nissan Leaf while really looking forward to the next one with a much larger battery.
John R. Graham wrote:
2018 Nissan Leaf (to be released late this year): 200+ miles promised.
You may or may not be following, but the new Leaf isn't going to be available in the US until next year.

Nissan is apparently going for lower cost first with 150 mile range, then later releasing the 200+ mile range option (source).
Quote:
The ’18 Nissan Leaf’s 40-kWh lithium ion battery pack, positioned below the floor, powers the car through its 147-hp AC synchronous motor for up to 150 miles

But Nissan is preparing to respond to the Chevy Bolt and Tesla Model 3 with a 60-kWh battery that will push range past 200 miles, Reed says. The 40-kWh Leaf launches in Japan this October 2, but doesn’t go on sale here until early next year. U.S. market models are built in Smyrna, Tennessee, and it will be on sale in all 50 states from the beginning. Nissan says the longer-range Leaf also will go on sale in 2018, but wasn’t specific about timing.
I think they're making a smart move in going for the lower cost option first. 150 miles is going to be good enough for a large number of people, and it will be at a more approachable price.

When they finally lose the $7,500 federal credit though, I think that's going to be a tough sell.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not know, or have not read, why anyone is talking about the recycle thing. What about the batteries? If this segment of electric car really takes off, it will be a mountain of it, not able to be recycled or so I've heard.
Anyone heard differently?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems so...

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/can-electric-car-batteries-be-recycled.htm
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Son of a gun! Look at that. Thanks. I appreciate that link. Tried some google myself and didn't find that last bits about the metal compounds being reused.
I found it funny, when someone said why it couldn't.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it's also possible that its just industry feel-good propaganda :twisted:

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Mira-Mesa-Man-Records-Waste-Management-Truck-Mixing-Trash-and-Recycles-421683573.html
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Well, it's also possible that its just industry feel-good propaganda 

Oh no! Say it's not so!......

I can imagine taking care of business like this might become expensive ( like using fluid nitrogen ). With that comes less taking care, and more of the business side. I can only imagine. :)
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