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Zucca
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Joined: 14 Jun 2007
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Location: Rasi, Finland
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 Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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I've sensed topic derailing.
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Gentoo IRC channels reside on Libera.Chat.
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krinn
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Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 7470
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:13 am Post subject: |
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It's simple, become op #gentoo, you'll have power to restrict language in there.
I don't know #gentoo rules to became op, but i'm pretty sure there's no "you must be man" rule. |
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NeddySeagoon
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Joined: 05 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:18 am Post subject: |
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krinn,
Its the entire environment, not just IRC.
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Computer users fall into two groups:-
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krinn
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Joined: 02 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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As long as the environment remains "virtual", it doesn't change neddy.
You cannot guess my gender in irc, email, bugzilla, forum or git by my nickname.
What you can only do is guessing by my style, which might really be wrong.
First because you will do generality: i like shoes, i'm a girl then. I speak rude, i'm a male then.
And second because english is use, and not everyone is english native ; i could just be speaking rude, because my handling of the language is poor.
My answer is simple: if she wants to soften speech in #gentoo, she could be op and act on that, and she doesn't have any needs to expose she's female, in irc there's only one status that count: @
I myself count on others #gentoo ops to drive her in the right direction if she gets too strict with users when she will indeed face reality, there are man or woman that speak "not like she wants" in irc because english is not their language, because they have trouble with typing, because they are on a tiny device or just because they use a qwerty keyboard backup instead of their usual azerty one... many many reasons that are not base on her gender. |
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ToeiRei
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Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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Location: Austria
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| krinn wrote: | As long as the environment remains "virtual", it doesn't change neddy.
You cannot guess my gender in irc, email, bugzilla, forum or git by my nickname.
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Some girls use gender neutral nicknames to avoid deling with sexism which still *is* present.
| krinn wrote: |
What you can only do is guessing by my style, which might really be wrong.
First because you will do generality: i like shoes, i'm a girl then. I speak rude, i'm a male then.
And second because english is use, and not everyone is english native ; i could just be speaking rude, because my handling of the language is poor.
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The only thing I am guessing from your comment is that I tipped on your toes with my wish to help the community.
| krinn wrote: |
My answer is simple: if she wants to soften speech in #gentoo, she could be op and act on that, and she doesn't have any needs to expose she's female, in irc there's only one status that count: @ |
You didn't read the whole idea. It's *NOT ONLY* about IRC. It's much more: a project to encourage women to do more in the gentoo community instead of having to hide because of chauvinism (which actually happening since back then).
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Naib
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Joined: 21 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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And this is already covered by the Gentoo CoC which we all agree to once we start using communication channels under the Gentoo namespace. Thus if someone is demonstrating such behaviour they can be reported to userrel
Woman are not the only ones subject to harassment and rude behaviour. A 5min search on this forum, even this thread will show this to be true
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NeddySeagoon
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| ToeiRei wrote: |
You didn't read the whole idea. It's *NOT ONLY* about IRC. It's much more: a project to encourage women to do more in the gentoo community instead of having to hide because of chauvinism (which actually happening since back then). |
Its been happening since Eve was a girl. That's no reason for it to continue.
The Royal Navy have a saying ... "It was good enough for Nelson" when they want to resist change.
This is a FOSS project it will stand or fall like any other FOSS project - it depends on the support it gets.
That its been tried before is not important but there may be lessons to be learned from previous attempts.
Think of Ada Lovelace. She was the first computer programmer. That the computer that Charles Babbage promised her was not made during her lifetime did not put her off.
What about Emily Pankhurst?
She successfully lead the campaign for votes for women in the UK.
I got a relevant fortune from my Raspberry Pi. "I didn't know it was impossible when I did it."
That bring us on to Blue LEDs. From the physics of silicon semiconductors they are impossible too.
That didn't stop someone making them.
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1clue
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Joined: 05 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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While I admit this approach is the long haul and not easy, I think the most effective way to get women involved in anything is to show women being competent and comfortable with whatever topic. And in charge. Not placed there (wherever there is) because she is a woman, but because she is competent. Not featured by publicists because she's a woman, but because she's excellent. Not done for a week or a month or a year, but constantly. Not one woman or two, but lots of them.
That's what real role models are. Little girls see women doing great things and they want to do that thing. There is no longer a real need for gender roles to be enforced. These days moms don't stay at home, they have jobs too. There's no reason why they can't be good jobs. |
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Ant P.
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Joined: 18 Apr 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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A short aside about network traffic control, keep reading, there's a point.
First Law Of Networks
As a receiver, you have no control over what remote systems on the same network send you. You cannot compel them to send more data, or less data, or the right or wrong data. If you can, by definition they're not a remote system but an extension of your own one so it doesn't count.
Second Law Of Networks
As a sender, you have no control over what you send once it leaves the boundary of your domain. Middleboxes everywhere will attempt to sniff, mangle, dissect, misdirect and destroy everything you send. Preventing those things has been the subject of ongoing research across many disciplines of science and half a century.
Why does this matter? Because these apply just as much to social networks with people instead of bits.
I see far, far too many other projects lately that are completely oblivious to those network effects. They think if they set up a heavy enough firewall ruleset and announce themselves on the network using some carefully crafted packets saying they're open to all, the traffic they want will come pouring in in exactly the ratios they wanted, from only the right sources.
What happens in reality is that they attract lots of unwanted people who breeze right past the firewall because they're good at sending fake signals of their own. People who should have passed the firewall get rejected, because it was ill thought out and overly specific. Some tiny fraction of legitimate traffic succeeds, but there's connections dropping all over because the system's overloaded under a bad policy and a growing heap of exceptions. In the meantime, all these false-negative/positive results are being broadcast to the world, and potential attackers are listening in and taking notes.
What #gentoo should do if it wants to improve, is being more like the likes of #haskell or #perl6 on the same network. They have a tactic that's worked for them for years: overwhelm bad actors with positivity they aren't prepared to deal with, until they eventually give up or are cured (like medicine, not bacon). There's the odd persistent sociopath, but they hide far away on trashy social media. Doing it this way also attracts more good people with less effort, because there isn't a giant flamewar mushroom cloud hanging over the area.
tl;dr be liberal in what you accept, strict in what you emit, be excellent to each other, trust but verify, etc etc.
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | That bring us on to Blue LEDs. From the physics of silicon semiconductors they are impossible too.
That didn't stop someone making them. |
One of those times I wish breaking the laws of physics carried jail time... at least red LEDs didn't blind me. |
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ToeiRei
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Location: Austria
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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Do we have women here who are interested in the project?
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R0b0t1
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Joined: 05 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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I would hope you can forgive some of the more inflammatory posts in this thread that were likely made by men. To most men, women being given preferential treatment to their detriment is something that they have seen often in their life and could very well be one of the deciding factors in their life outcome.
| ToeiRei wrote: | | You didn't read the whole idea. It's *NOT ONLY* about IRC. It's much more: a project to encourage women to do more in the gentoo community instead of having to hide because of chauvinism (which actually happening since back then). |
The problem that I have with this and that I would imagine other people have with this is that this is basically requesting preferential treatment of women. It is the exact opposite of equality.
| ToeiRei wrote: | | Do we have women here who are interested in the project? |
What is the "project?"
It looks like the answer is no, but as has been discussed it's likely not because Gentoo is too unwelcoming. Gentoo probably has a similar demographic makeup as most other distributions (as there is no reason to assume otherwise that I know of), but the userbase is much smaller. It stands to reason that there might only be ten or less female members who participate in distribution related discussion forums. |
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steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| R0b0t1 wrote: | | I would hope you can forgive some of the more inflammatory posts in this thread that were likely made by men. |
If you are asking for forgiveness, then by all means: ask.
| Quote: | | To most men, women being given preferential treatment to their detriment is something that they have seen often in their life and could very well be one of the deciding factors in their life outcome. |
oh jeez. Politics-101 again.
I've said it before: geeks are typically full of crap when it comes to non-technical matters.
Try to consider the phrase "5000 years of Patriarchy." By all means go and research what Patriarchy means, and how it operates.
Imagine how you might feel living in the position of the "other", the scapegoat who takes the blame for male inability to deal with their own sexuality and emotions.
Imagine the man beating you every night, then raping you, then sodomising you, was someone you loved once, and has the full backing of the Law to do everything he does to you.
Imagine that if you dare to say anything, you get beaten; up til 1890 or thereabouts, the UK had a Law in Statute, stating a man could use a rod up to so-thick to "chastise" his wife. This was considered "humane", since before the Law came into place, he could do whatever he wanted: she is his property, after all.
That's what patriarchy means: slavery, pure and simple.
Thousands of years of it, leaves men in a favoured position; deal with it, or pretend otherwise, it won't change the reality.
And sure, anyone can be oppressed: it just takes power in a local situation (all situations are local, or have a context.)
That doesn't mean you are, just "because feminism". We're not talking about localised situations, but a societal problem.
Nor does it excuse your taking zero time to find out about the issues before you wade in; you wouldn't do that with technical discussion about computing, so what makes you think it is acceptable wrt people's lives, and aspects you clearly have no clue about?
I don't especially care if that makes you feel put-out; the "social" media notion that any crap we spew must be "validated", is anti-social.
| ToeiRei wrote: | | You didn't read the whole idea. It's *NOT ONLY* about IRC. It's much more: a project to encourage women to do more in the gentoo community instead of having to hide because of chauvinism (which actually happening since back then). |
| Quote: | | The problem that I have with this and that I would imagine other people have with this is that this is basically requesting preferential treatment of women. It is the exact opposite of equality. |
Be real: by "other people" you mean "other men", and no, not all of us do. Just like there were no "most men" above; only you, speaking from your own feelings.
A similar argument: some men consider providing spaces for women to breast-feed in privacy to be "preferential treatment of women"; after all, only women need it, and they can breast-feed wherever they want in privacy.
Or providing maternity leave; only women get that, right?
All of it misses the point: this is reality. IF men gave birth, do you really think the situation would be the same? Men would be boasting about how much child-rearing leave they got, as another thing to argue about^W^W claim status over. Breast-feeding would be done brazenly, in public, and they'd expect congratulations from every passer-by on doing their part, as well as subsidized everything since "this is the future of our species, guy."
What failing to provide does, is simply tell women: "you're not welcome, this is not your space" ("you should be at home, raising your children and looking after your man.. it was good enough for my mom, and she's the greatest woman in the world..") This is the point of it.
Consider the phrase "safe spaces".
Deflection into how every gentoo space should be a safe space, is simply a means of killing discussion, and thus stopping progress; it ignores the reality in favour of what should be happening, but is not, which is why the discussion is taking place at all.
| ToeiRei wrote: | | Do we have women here who are interested in the project? |
| Quote: | | It looks like the answer is no, but as has been discussed it's likely not because Gentoo is too unwelcoming.. |
HTF would you know?
Also "likely" and "as discussed" just show the same problem I keep raising: you have been questioning the basis, and now you're happy with how the thoughts line up in your head; never mind that they are completely wide of the mark. So let's move on to phase 2, where you rest your argument on that fundamentally-flawed premise, and get defensive, even irritated, when that premise is questioned again. (It's called "cognitive dissonance.")
You have to go back and reconsider your premises. I know this is irritating, but you are the one who decided to post about how it's all X, Y, or Z; anything but the simple reality presented, that is actually in front of you every day.
Annoying, isn't it? And this is just about some random thoughts you submitted to a web-forum.
Imagine if it was about your entire life, how you live it, and judgements made thereon by people whose business it definitely is not, who show themselves to be ignorant, insensate and arrogant, and who actually seem to enjoy beating up on others, in various ways; if they can't do it physically, they'll do it verbally, or in posts, trying to undermine everything you say, or write.
Now imagine you're supposed to marry one of these shites, let him stick his tiny prick in you, and pretend to enjoy it, and then spend the next 20 years looking after the kids, including the big one who refuses to grow up, already. In fact he doesn't even clean himself properly, as his nose is defective, and he drinks so he's even less in tune with reality.
And ofc you have to pretend to be interested in every tiny detail of his shit-for-brains life, while he simply gives you a blank look whenever real, life-changing events take place.
And if you don't like the sound of that, you must be a lesbian or a commie-pinko, and thus are to be ostracised, shunned and bullied wherever you dare to stick your pretty neck above the parapet. OTW will give your prick^W man plenty of self-justification and nasty words to do this with.[1]
| Quote: | | Gentoo probably has a similar demographic makeup as most other distributions (as there is no reason to assume otherwise that I know of), but the userbase is uch smaller. It stands to reason that there might only be ten or less female members who participate in distribution related discussion forums. |
It also stands to reason that women might prefer not to "out themselves" simply because men are on the whole anti-social assholes, who think behaving like that is "all good fun" and anyone who "doesn't get it" must have a stick up her ass (cue lots of unsubtle description of what they'd prefer to stick up there; indicating they'd prefer someone else to stick it up their own, and are pretending otherwise^W^W lying to themselves.) They seem to think it's "all good fun" to sexually-proposition someone you cannot even see.
What, you don't like that description? So what. It's not my problem; you must have a stick up... ;p
If you don't like it, change it. You don't do that by banging on at the women, who *shock- horror* are not the ones behaving like this.
Sure, they have their own flaws, none of which are gender-specific, though arguably gender-preferred; and ofc anyone can be an asshole.
The reality is though, that society is iniquitous, which results in prejudice and discrimination because of "who you are" rather than "how you behave" or "what you do".
The only way to address that is to confront it head-on; which means dealing with the same groupings that are being discriminated against. To do so, does not mean you are a racialist, or sexist, or homophobic, just because you talk about racial injustice, gender oppression and homophobia.
But that's pretty much the level of your argument; a moment's thought should dismiss it. (If we discuss the caste-system in India, does that necessarily mean that you endorse it? You b*st*rd. ;-)
That it didn't indicates to me that you're still going through that learning process, which is fine. Just be honest with yourself, that you are learning a new topic (which always means starting from ignorance), and should give it the attention it merits; after all, it's about more than half the planet's humanity.
I'd expect anyone on these forums to take learning new topics, and techniques, seriously.
If one cannot do the same when it comes to non-technical, or socio-political, matters, then by all means: do not participate.
In that situation, one is just a troll, whether one realises it or not; good intentions are irrelevant to the result.
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[1] No I am not saying all men are like this, nor am I saying anything about you personally.
Most men are though, or at least start off like that; enough that countless comedy-series and programmes have effectively documented it, and men actually like those, as it means they can feel a little better about being such a dog.
IME, most men eventually realise they don't like this bullshit either; from that point, we call each other "blokes." |
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R0b0t1
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Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 264
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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What?
Most of the assumptions built into your post, like that I don't know the basis of feminism, or that violence is only perpetrated by men are wrong.
Moreover you ignored the parts of the conversation where people kept saying that there are outlets to deal with harassment. If they aren't made use of then there's nothing more the project can do that isn't "positive discrimination."
I mean, I don't think anyone in the thread really needs to apologize for what they have said, but I have had enough of this type of discussion to think that the OP may want an apology. What I gave is the best explanation I have for why this thread went the way it did.
Last edited by R0b0t1 on Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | Woman are not the only ones subject to harassment and rude behaviour. A 5min search on this forum, even this thread will show this to be true |
Aww, poor baby.. be careful, and don't ever go into OTW now.
Instead of whining, you could have asked yourself whether I had a point, and perhaps looked up the original How Not to be an Asshole to see whether there was anything to my continued references to it.
| Quote: | I’m a big fan of dispassionate, rational, fact-based discussion of the issues myself, and it is in that spirit that I offer, to my brethren who’ve taken it upon themselves to be a shining light of dispassion on this topic, these fraternal words of guidance:
Shut the fuck up.
Here are a few of the actual facts that prompt the above sage counsel:
— You are not saying anything the women you’re talking to haven’t heard a thousand times before. You are not saying anything the women you’re talking to haven’t told themselves a thousand times before. If you would actually stop your reflexive know-it-all yammering and pay attention to what women actually SAY about the offenses they suffer on the sexual harassment -rape continuum, you will note that almost to a woman they second-guess their own gut feelings about the putative offender far beyond the point where almost any man would.
— You are wrong. If you doubt that the nature of abuse and harassment women suffer, online or off, differs from that men experience, then you don’t know what you’re talking about. Oddly, the Internets offer a way for you to verify this fact for yourself. About a dozen years ago, at the urging of a feminist online acquaintance, I logged on to AOL using an obviously female but non-provocative handle. (”AliciaMN.”) Within five minutes of logging on I had sexually abusive IMs popping up from men I didn’t know. Didn’t matter which room I was in: general chat, politics, classical music. I kept up the experiment for I think four days, a couple hours a day, sometimes chatting with people about non-sexual topics, sometimes just lurking. Two of the men who IMed AliciaMN with blatantly and obnoxiously sexual messages — “Hey, I’m up in Alaska! How ’bout you thaw my dick out with your throat?” being an example I recall — responded to my NON-response by telling “Alicia” she deserved to get raped.
This is neither new nor surprising information to any woman here. I mention it because 1) maybe if a man says it it’ll be taken seriously and 2) it implies a suggestion that disbelievers find a venue equivalent to AOL in its heyday and repeat my experiment, in the spirit of dispassionate empiricism.
— If no woman in your life has ever talked to you about how she lives her life with an undercurrent of fear of men, consider the possibility that it may be because she sees you as one of those men she cannot really trust.
— Finally, let’s assume just for the sake of argument that you’re right. You aren’t. But just as a gedankenexperiment, let’s pretend you are, and that the women who are talking about the massive deadweight silence from men about the harassment they experience, and who are getting all upset and speaking in terms of “war zones” and “hate crimes” and such are just being emotional, hysterical even, and — like the people who forward that bogus email about the guy with the ropes and duct tape in hs trunk in the mall parking lot — just need to be set straight with a calm, measured dose of logic and fact-checking.
In most situations, that’s a fine impulse. There really is no reason to get upset about LSD in blue star tattoos, and Bill Gates really isn’t paying people who forward a chain email.
But this situation is qualitatively different. When the topic at hand is men not taking an issue seriously, suggesting that the issue might not really be all that serious is not being dispassionate. It is, in fact, taking a side. And the people on the side you’re taking, incidentally, include the gropers, the rapists, the sexual-favor-demanding bosses.
In short, if you’re interested in quibbling with the data or suggesting alternate interpretations of what Kos really meant when he called Kathy Sierra a lying “crying blogger,” and your goal is not to be a flaming asshole, shut the fuck up.
And when you shut the fuck up, two magical things happen:
1) You’re no longer actively contributing to the very problem you’re discussing;
2) It’s easier to listen to what the women are actually saying. |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| R0b0t1 wrote: | What?
blah blah |
I refer you to the above.
When I talk about "questioning the basis" it's the same as "quibbling with the data, or suggesting alternative interpretations."
You've been doing it throughout, so please: stop it. |
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szatox
Advocate
Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Posts: 3137
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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Oh my, what a wall of text. I thought _my_ posts tend to be too long.
Anyway... The more some people bitch about something the more other people don't like that bitching. And now we have another SystemD* thread here. Gratz.
* the actual topic is irrelevant, pattern remains recognizable |
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1clue
Advocate
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 2569
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Why did this turn into a bunch of men talking with a tiny bit of input from women? |
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Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6051
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| 1clue wrote: | | Why did this turn into a bunch of men talking with a tiny bit of input from women? |
we have one child throwing a tantrum & the rest trying to have a discussion
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1clue
Advocate
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Posts: 2569
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | 1clue wrote: | | Why did this turn into a bunch of men talking with a tiny bit of input from women? |
we have one child throwing a tantrum & the rest trying to have a discussion |
I've been watching, and mostly trying to keep my mouth shut. |
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Ant P.
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Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 6920
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| 1clue wrote: | | Why did this turn into a bunch of men talking with a tiny bit of input from women? |
And this whole topic was supposed to be trying to fix that. I guess there's not much point in me giving advice when the people who should be taking it on board don't want to listen... sigh |
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saellaven
l33t
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 646
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:48 am Post subject: |
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| ToeiRei wrote: | | Do we have women here who are interested in the project? |
I, personally, have no interest in the project. This entire thread is part of why I don't make my gender an issue. That, however, doesn't mean others feel the same way that I do. |
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Zucca
Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 3345
Location: Rasi, Finland
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | 1clue wrote: | | Why did this turn into a bunch of men talking with a tiny bit of input from women? |
we have one child throwing a tantrum & the rest trying to have a discussion |
So let's just shut up for a while and let women talk if they want to revive gentoo-women.
Ok?
_________________
..: Zucca :..
Gentoo IRC channels reside on Libera.Chat.
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| Quote: | | I am NaN! I am a man! |
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ToeiRei
Veteran
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 1191
Location: Austria
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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We're still talking about gentoo, right?
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miket
Guru
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 488
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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| ToeiRei wrote: | | We're still talking about gentoo, right? |
I would hope so!
Everyone benefits from the input of diverse inputs. Sometimes its a matter of perspectives that some users bring that others don't share; sometimes its from one set of skills that some have and some don't.
We're better off if both women and men contribute...and this is decidedly not to say that only group or another has a monopoly on all the skills.
Here are two examples from my experience of women who excel in a supposedly masculine field.
1. Daniela Engert, an electrical engineer who wrote, among many other things, the go-to set of storage-device drivers for OS/2. There were always known for being exceptionally good.
2. My own mother, who went into pharmacy back when women pharmacists were pretty well unknown. I got my start in fixing mechanical and electrical things from her.
No matter the skills, though, there is a measure of balance that comes from having multiple points of view.
As for the people who make harassing comments, the first thing I could say is that they were not raised right! Though there's a lot more you could say about their motives or their psychological disposition, what stands out starkly is the cost: inasmuch as anyone is discouraged from participating because of the harassment, we all lose. It affects more than the discouraged (and angry) victim: it affects the community as a whole. The toll on a community as small as ours is compounded if the one leaving is a woman because group that remains is even more unbalanced than before.
So ToeiRei, we need you. I hope you need us. And if anyone starts harassing you or some other member of our community, I hope we all rise up against that. |
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eccerr0r
Watchman
Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 9679
Location: almost Mile High in the USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:02 am Post subject: |
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| miket wrote: | | we all lose. It affects more than the discouraged (and angry) victim: it affects the community as a whole. The toll on a community as small as ours is compounded if the one leaving is a woman because group that remains is even more unbalanced than before. |
I'd make it clear that it's not just singling out women leaving - men could also leave if they find they have no place helping the community when they find an abusive group. Of course it doesn't help "the balance" whatever that accomplishes, but that person who leaves or rejects joining - male or female - we may have lost another person that could have improved the situation for everyone if at the very least helps inflate our distrowatch numbers.
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